"Reading prove patience is a virtue"

[Hoop Blah]

I agree, my different view is that club may well be failing to take into account the lack of investment on supporter enthusiasm. Couple this with the way the club have treated it's core support for some time (I actually had conversations with Boyd Butler a couple of times on this years ago), almost in favour of growing the floating support, and I think there's a danger of numbers dwindling further.

[rhroyal]

I agree, my different view is that club may well be failing to take into account the lack of investment on supporter enthusiasm. Couple this with the way the club have treated it's core support for some time (I actually had conversations with Boyd Butler a couple of times on this years ago), almost in favour of growing the floating support, and I think there's a danger of numbers dwindling further.

Every club takes the piss with their core support though. I understand why. We're maybe losing a few disillusioned individuals, but the majority are remaining.

I don't always like the negativity on here, but the reality is that the most cynical posters on here who appear thoroughly pissed off with everything to do with our club still go to matches regularly.

[Hampshire Royal]

There was an article in the EP (or perhaps a thread on here, I can't remember exactly) which said that we haven't had a lague gate of less than 10,000 since <a date in the past> (about ten years). I can remember when our 'core support' was about 4,000. You can call it ancient history if you like, but it wasn't that long ago, and in any case, it's always best not to ignore history.

I started supporting RFC in 1967 (and no, I'm not a 'better fan than you' or anyone else) and gates averaging 17,000 in the top half of the second tier weren't even dreams because only a complete madman would imagine it in his wildest moments. We have come so far!! If we throw it away, in the same way that Oxford, Swindon, Barnsley, Bradford etc have then it will all have been for nothing.

Mid-table 'obscurity' don't make me laugh - we are again in with a realistic chance of promotion, most likely through the playoffs, and one narrow defeat against the best side in the division doesn't change that one bit. FFS grow up!!

[Schards#2]

Doing some rough figures Zac, on the teams that have been relegated alongside Reading since 2007/2008.

------------2007/08 AVERAGE:-------2008/09:-------2009/10---------2010/2011
Reading--------23,585 (PL)-----------19,940 (CCC)----17,408 (CCC)----17,216 (CCC)
Birmingham-----26,180 (PL)----------19,081 (CCC)---- 25,246 (PL)------24,729 (PL)
Derby---------32,432 (PL)----------29,440 (CCC)-----29,230 (CCC)-----26,306 (CCC)
West Brom-----22,311 (CCC)---------25,827 (PL)------22,199 (CCC)-----24,729 (PL)
Newcastle------51,320 (PL)-----------48,749 (PL)------43,387 (CCC)-----46,569 (PL)
Middlesbrough---26,707 (PL)----------28,428 (PL)------19,948 (CCC)-----16,560 (CCC)
Burnley--------12,364 (CCC)--------15,891 (CCC)----20,653 (PL)-------15,261 (CCC)
Hull----------18,238 (CCC)--------24,816 (PL)-------24,389 (PL)-------21,140 (CCC)
Portsmouth------19,914 (PL)--------19,829 (PL)------18,249 (PL)-------16,189 (CCC)


Looking at the above it's clear that every club loses fans after relegation, whether you're Reading or Newcastle, it makes no difference. Since relegation Reading's average has dropped by around 20%, but Derby's has dropped by around the same.
Two seasons after relegation Middlesbrough are now down by over 35%, in one season Burnley have fallen by 25% and even Newcastle saw their fanbase drop by over 10% despite romping to the Championship.
Schards if you can look at those stats and still think of Reading's attendance drop as unique then go ahead.*edit bah, formatting is a little screwy so I apologise!

And there's the obligatory straw man

Can you point out where I have said Reading's attendance drop is unique? Quite clearly, I haven't.

What I have said is I disagree with the premise of the article that Reading a good blueprint to follow, because by pretty much every measurable indicator, the club has been going progressively backwards every year since relegation. Attendances being one of these indicators.

You're free to agree or disagree but don't just make stuff up and pretend I've said it as that's pretty pointless isn't it?

[Hampshire Royal]

If it happens with most clubs, why usee it as an indicator that Reading are, somehow, doing it all wrong? We're no different to any fanbase in the country.

[papereyes]

Schards is saying (I think) that if we're doing it right, as suggested in the article, then an indicator that shows that we're performing like most other clubs isn't going to show that we're doing it right.

What I have said is I disagree with the premise of the article that Reading a good blueprint to follow, because by pretty much every measurable indicator, the club has been going progressively backwards every year since relegation. Attendances being one of these indicators.

I think this is obviously correct except that Reading probably is a good blueprint because other, bigger clubs have fallen further and risked a lot more in doing so. We haven't.

[Royal Lady]

If it happens with most clubs, why usee it as an indicator that Reading are, somehow, doing it all wrong? We're no different to any fanbase in the country.

Well quite, so why are we used as "blueprint" - we're really no different to any other club.

[Wimb]

Apologies, but in the context of your original postings and the above you've said that the attendance drop is a good reason/indicator of why it shouldn't be seen as a good blueprint, therefore suggesting our attendance drop is some indicator of a failure, or uniqueness. Apologies if that is the wrong interpretation.

The point of me posting those statistics was to show that no 'blueprint' is going to be able to realistically correct that attendance drop as every other relegated club (successful or not) have shown. Therefore when considering whether we're a good blueprint, it's not particularly fair to judge success/failure on attendance.

Obviously we've gone backwards since relegation, the point is whether the club have taken one step back so it can take two steps forward in the long term, or whether it's constantly retreating. The point of the article, from my perspective, was that yes we've gone backwards as ALL relegated clubs do, but that we've dug our heels in and stopped the slide, and are slowly pushing our way back up, with our finances in tact and a playing squad/management team capable of moving forward, rather then the slides seen by Southampton, Bradford, Leeds etc.

[PEARCEY]

If it happens with most clubs, why usee it as an indicator that Reading are, somehow, doing it all wrong? We're no different to any fanbase in the country.

So we are not a blueprint then. Back in our brief stay in the Premiership people were kidding themselves that Reading had somehow bucked the trend and could do well in top-flight fotball without having to invest significantly in playing staff.

[Schards#2]

If it happens with most clubs, why usee it as an indicator that Reading are, somehow, doing it all wrong? We're no different to any fanbase in the country.

I haven't said Reading are doing it all wrong, I've disagreed with the suggestion that Reading are doing it all right.

[Hampshire Royal]

So which bits are we doing right, and which are we doing wrong?

[Wimb]

If it happens with most clubs, why usee it as an indicator that Reading are, somehow, doing it all wrong? We're no different to any fanbase in the country.

I haven't said Reading are doing it all wrong, I've disagreed with the suggestion that Reading are doing it all right.

I think Paps was right on the top of the last page that we're not so far apart. Reading have made mistakes but then so do every team, arguably our biggest was the handling of when Coppell left and who followed him.

My biggest question would be Schards is that who would you say is the blueprint to follow? The only example I can think of is West Brom, but they haven't really settled in the Premier League so how admirable that is I'm unsure.

[Snowball]

Surely clubs either bounce back first season down or ALWAYS go progressively backwards
(from a Premiership outfit, or an ex-Prem outfit trying to bounce back) until they
stabilize at "their level" hoping for their next "special season".

OR they implode, sometimes go into administration, drop into League 1.

It's hard to off-load a full squad, many of whom are on Premiership money, a few on BIG Prem money
without the team going into disarray.

Our real problem (not really sure whose FAULT it was) was the failed experiment with Rodgers,
too much too soon, too big a change in philosophy.

But 4th, a gamble, then 9th, and now, this season, somewhere probably between 4th and 9th,
I think is excellent given the upheaval, the changes, the shippings-out, the long-term injuries.

We got lucky with Gylfi, but we earned that luck by setting up the Academy in the first place.

DERBY, a much bigger club, much bigger crowds, came down with us. They are below us could even get relegated this season.

Middlesboro, came down the following year, have spent heavily, still getting parachute money: BELOW US

BURNLEY, financially sound, one season down, still getting parachute payments. BELOW US as I write

HULL CITY, one season dow, went to the wire financially. BELOW US

Ditto Portsmouth. BELOW US and a financial horror story

Birmingham, Newcastle, WBA managed to bounce back. The first two took HUGE financial risks. Birmingham scraped home last game of the season

[Snowball]

So that's 3/9 bounced back, 2 of those at great financial risk.

We are currently the highest-placed of the other six teams. Isn't that "sound" AND ambitious?

Reading. No parachute payments, stabilised EIGHTH
Birmingham (bounced back at great risk)
Derby. No parachute payments. Heavily in debt. 16th

Newcastle (bounced back at great risk)
Middlesboro (failed to bounce back. Still getting parachute money) 18th
WBA (boing! boing!)

Burnley Still receiving parachute money, good finances. Yet they are 11th
Hull Almost folded, recently bailed out. Still receiving parachute money But 13TH
Portsmouth. Financial horror-story, almost folded. Still receiving parachute money. 20th, could be relegated

[Hoop Blah]

Not doubting we've done ok in terms of league finishes, although we could always have done better.

Coppell should've learnt by his own mistakes and strengthened at a time of strength (Christmas '08 when we signed yet another squad player in Tabb) and pushed for the automatic promotion we looked almost nailed on for.

Under Rodgers we could've backed him a bit more (he lost so many from the squad it needed more of the right quality incoming).

McDermott has followed Coppells lead and we're back to making do.

It's not just the end result that matters, it's how you go about getting there.

[Snowball]

Just looking at sides that have suffered relegation from the premiership
and where they are now

03 Man City ....... Huge club, now with mega-money)
06 Sunderland. ... Big spenders
08 Bolton .... ???
09 Blackburn... had a sugar-daddy, now the Indians
10 Newcastle... BIG spenders, took a huge risk to bounce back
16 WBA ......... Boing! Boing! May well be relegated again
17 Birmingham... took a huge risk to bouce back
20 Wolves ... Big club with history, look like being relegated

21 QPR .... relegated 95-6 Bigger than Reading, spent time lower than here!
22 Norwich ... financial dire straits for a while, relegated to League 1
24 Forest ... spending a lot (don't know their finances)
26 Leeds ... financial troubles, administration, League 1
27 Watford ... new manager worked wonders, great academy, no money
28 Reading ... reasonably stable, some decent assets, promising young squad, short of two players

30 Leicester ... fell to League 1, appear to have a sugar daddy now
32 Barnsley ... freak to be in the Prem, now? The future?
35 Coventry ... strict budget now, slowly fading from former glory days
36 Derby ... big club, big financial problems, could go down this year
37 Ipswich ... have spent plenty. doesn't appear to have helped!
38 Boro ... sugar daddy for years, still got relegated and below RFC now
41 Palace ... serious financial troubles, could be relegated
42 Sheffield United .. despite the Tevez money, really struggling, coulf drop to League 1

League 1

48 Southampton BIG Club, serious financial problems for years
49 Oldham
50 Wimbledon (MK Dons) Hah-Hah-Hah
52 Charlton Suffering financially
56 Sheffield Wednesday in terrible financial situation for years
65 Swindon NO MONEY

League 2

82 Bradford

[rhroyal]

Just looking at sides that have suffered relegation from the premiership
and where they are now

03 Man City ....... Huge club, now with mega-money)
06 Sunderland. ... Big spenders
08 Bolton .... ???
09 Blackburn... had a sugar-daddy, now the Indians
10 Newcastle... BIG spenders, took a huge risk to bounce back
16 WBA ......... Boing! Boing! May well be relegated again
17 Birmingham... took a huge risk to bouce back
20 Wolves ... Big club with history, look like being relegated

21 QPR .... relegated 95-6 Bigger than Reading, spent time lower than here!
22 Norwich ... financial dire straits for a while, relegated to League 1
24 Forest ... spending a lot (don't know their finances)
26 Leeds ... financial troubles, administration, League 1
27 Watford ... new manager worked wonders, great academy, no money
28 Reading ... reasonably stable, some decent assets, promising young squad, short of two players

30 Leicester ... fell to League 1, appear to have a sugar daddy now
32 Barnsley ... freak to be in the Prem, now? The future?
35 Coventry ... strict budget now, slowly fading from former glory days
36 Derby ... big club, big financial problems, could go down this year
37 Ipswich ... have spent plenty. doesn't appear to have helped!
38 Boro ... sugar daddy for years, still got relegated and below RFC now
41 Palace ... serious financial troubles, could be relegated
42 Sheffield United .. despite the Tevez money, really struggling, coulf drop to League 1

League 1

48 Southampton BIG Club, serious financial problems for years
49 Oldham
50 Wimbledon (MK Dons) Hah-Hah-Hah
52 Charlton Suffering financially
56 Sheffield Wednesday in terrible financial situation for years
65 Swindon NO MONEY

League 2

82 Bradford

That does make our recent fortunes look better, when you consider that 4 out of 5 clubs above us in the Championship have plumbed to far lower depths in the mean time.

I think the truth is a lot of those clubs are bigger than us. Of course we should always be aiming to establish in the Premiership, but with a hint of realism. I don't know how you'd compile a table of "biggest clubs" in the country, but I imagine we'd scrape into the top 30 at a push and we don't have the resources (or the wealthy backers) that many above us do.

[ZacNaloen]

Surely clubs either bounce back first season down or ALWAYS go progressively backwards
(from a Premiership outfit, or an ex-Prem outfit trying to bounce back) until they
stabilize at "their level" hoping for their next "special season".

Boom.

You got it.


The premise of the article is that Reading have have managed to get themselves back to the starting point they were at before they were promoted quicker than other clubs that are unable to bounce back immediately. I have no idea if this is true, I can't be bothered to even look into it. It may be premature to say so. My instinct is that it's correct. We are looking to finish in around the same position as last year if not higher and attendances aren't really down anymore than attendances elsewhere have dropped or for other clubs that have recently been relegated. Numbers are are pretty much the same as our starting point pre-promotion.

Much better than the last time we sold our stars and cut the budget. League 2 before we turned it around wasn't it?

[Hoop Blah]

Not sure snowballs league table shows much really though. All those teams are in different phases of their life post-relegation. Who knows where we'll be in five or six years time. We might go through similar fall out as Coventry or Barnsley, albeit at a safer and slower pace.

Ultimately I don't really care too much where those other clubs are now, or how they got there. All I look for is my club to be doing all it can to improve and make supporting my club as enjoyable and worthwhile as possible. At times I don't think we've done that.

At times we've done that and much more (and those times aren't always the successful ones I might add).

[ZacNaloen]

As I said, that's just the premise of the article.

I can't speak to it's accuracy, just that this season we are looking to at least have stabilised. Unless we go on a really bad win to the end of the season we aren't looking in danger of going down and we are giving top 6 sides a run for their money. There's not a lot missing from this team despite what some are saying on the QPR thread.