Shane Long

[Huntley & Palmer]

He's now the club's third-top scorer despite having only made 9 league starts

The only stat you have posted that speaks a lot about this season

[working class hero]

So this Dennis Norden, is he any good ?

Apparently he is alright on the night...

[Southbank Old Boy]

Now are you telling me that the average punter quantifies these things? Ian was saying (just to think of another stick to use) that Kebe was getting more ball because SHunt was marked out of the game. I don't agree, but if he was, isn't that a contribution? It's like the contribution of Harps, or Gilberto when he was at Arsenal. It isn't always about goals, or crunching tackles, or marvelous passes.

The point is, to PROPERLY decide if a midfielder passes the ball well requires COUNTING and accurate, balanced, unbiased assessment. Go to a game, get a feel for who is good and bad, then watch it on TV replays half a dozen times and discover how wrong first impressions are.

Your first parapgraph there shows exactly why stats just dont cover enough of what is actually happening on the pitch to give you a good enough insight into how a player is contributing to his team. He may even be asked to play a lot of ambitious balls to open a team up or stretch the game a bit, or alternatively make lots of short easy passes to kill the game. If you dont know what they are trying to do or grade the passes they are attempting you cant give a stat on how well a player passes the ball

As for the second paragraph it doesnt require COUNTING. It does require balanced objectivity when you assess what you see of a player, but counting doesnt actually add anything unless you have the memory of a goldfish and lack the ability to mentally assess how well a player does a certain part of the game

[Ian Royal]

Now are you telling me that the average punter quantifies these things? Ian was saying (just to think of another stick to use) that Kebe was getting more ball because SHunt was marked out of the game. I don't agree, but if he was, isn't that a contribution? It's like the contribution of Harps, or Gilberto when he was at Arsenal. It isn't always about goals, or crunching tackles, or marvelous passes.

The point is, to PROPERLY decide if a midfielder passes the ball well requires COUNTING and accurate, balanced, unbiased assessment. Go to a game, get a feel for who is good and bad, then watch it on TV replays half a dozen times and discover how wrong first impressions are.

Your first parapgraph there shows exactly why stats just dont cover enough of what is actually happening on the pitch to give you a good enough insight into how a player is contributing to his team. He may even be asked to play a lot of ambitious balls to open a team up or stretch the game a bit, or alternatively make lots of short easy passes to kill the game. If you dont know what they are trying to do or grade the passes they are attempting you cant give a stat on how well a player passes the ball

As for the second paragraph it doesnt require COUNTING. It does require balanced objectivity when you assess what you see of a player, but counting doesnt actually add anything unless you have the memory of a goldfish and lack the ability to mentally assess how well a player does a certain part of the game

I'd like to know exactly where I said that, because I don't remember it.

Is it yet again a case of snowball allowing his prejudice of people who post on here get in his way of understanding what they are saying and appreciating their view point? I think it might be.

COngratulations to snowball who has produced incontravertible proof that Kebe has the second most assists of any Reading player this year.

Of course this has very little to do with any one saying that he has been disappointing and woefully inconsistent and wasteful. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The guy could have 36 assists from his 36 starts (or however many) That doesn't mean he's fantastic. He could have only touched the ball once each game and spent the rest of the time sitting on the sidelines watching and still got those assists. Those numbers are a snap shot and tell you nothing about his overall contribution to the team in any given game, or games as a whole this season.

It can allow you to deduce things about his performances if you have nothing else to go on, but the conclusions you come to may be completely wrong.

Equally you could look at Doyle's goal haul and think he's had an excellent season. But when you consider he had all but 2 of those goals before Christmas and has still played a lot of games afterwards, it tells you he has had a very mixed season. It also tells you absolutely nothing about the rest of his contribution to the team.

Snowball seems completely incapable of seeing this and seems to think that anyone arguing with what seems to be his view (hard to tell what it is exactly because he rarely posts any analysis or makes any interesting conclusions) is trying to say that his stats are wrong. For example that I'm trying to argue Kebe doesn't have 9 assists, or hasn't got the seond most assists of a Reading player.

Which is quite obviously bollocks. The argument is that those stats are an extremely limited picture and don't necessarily reflect how he is playing.

[1871royals]

The guy could have 36 assists from his 36 starts (or however many) That doesn't mean he's fantastic. He could have only touched the ball once each game and spent the rest of the time sitting on the sidelines watching and still got those assists. Those numbers are a snap shot and tell you nothing about his overall contribution to the team in any given game, or games as a whole this season.

The object of football is to score goals and hes setting up goals which as a winger is one of his primary jobs. For e.g if Kebe sets up a goal but doesn't offer much else (which is often the case), imo its not that important as hes contributed to the most important thing a goal. As long as he doesnt cost us goals defensively, which I dont think he does.

I do think with Kebe some because hes unconventional some fans dont like him. His first regular season in England and hes one of the assist leaders, I think it has been successful, also the club wouldn't have given him a new deal if he hadn't performed.

[Ian Royal]

But that's exactly the problem. He's only performed when the rest of the team has been playing well. He got most of his assists ages ago. If he isn't getting assists he doesn't add much, if anything. Part of the reason we've been so rubbish recently, because we rely on our wingers for goals.

The number of assists he gets also doesn't tell you how many times he's been put into (or got himself into) a position to create an assist or goal and totally blown it. Something I've seen a lot from him.

Hunt on the other hand contributes more to the team as a whole. He creates less out of nothing and has been particularly poor in recent months, certainly in attacking terms.

There is a reason that our top goalscorer and top two assisters won't (or shouldn't) be player of the season and it's because they've spent large swathes of the season being poor or ineffectual.

You can forgive Kebe the errors when he's getting assists anyway. But when those dry up and all you're left with is beating two men with some magic and then stupidly running the ball straight to a third/crossing to no one. Or failing to bury an easy chance. Frankly you deserve to be slated.

Kebe hasn't done badly recently because he's been marked out of the game, or he hasn't got any service or support. He's done badly, largely because he's oxf*rd up. Like he's been doing on and off all season.

[Southbank Old Boy]

The guy could have 36 assists from his 36 starts (or however many) That doesn't mean he's fantastic. He could have only touched the ball once each game and spent the rest of the time sitting on the sidelines watching and still got those assists. Those numbers are a snap shot and tell you nothing about his overall contribution to the team in any given game, or games as a whole this season.

The object of football is to score goals and hes setting up goals which as a winger is one of his primary jobs. For e.g if Kebe sets up a goal but doesn't offer much else (which is often the case), imo its not that important as hes contributed to the most important thing a goal. As long as he doesnt cost us goals defensively, which I dont think he does.

I do think with Kebe some because hes unconventional some fans dont like him. His first regular season in England and hes one of the assist leaders, I think it has been successful, also the club wouldn't have given him a new deal if he hadn't performed.

That really depends how many goals the oppo score because the team is playing with 10 men. If you had two wingers who each created two goals every game but you keep losing 10-2 because the defence is totally exposed then its not a lot of use is it?

[1871royals]

That really depends how many goals the oppo score because the team is playing with 10 men. If you had two wingers who each created two goals every game but you keep losing 10-2 because the defence is totally exposed then its not a lot of use is it?

Kebe isn't brilliant defensively but hes not costing us goals so its not like playing with 10 men. If we use your e.g. of two wingers setting up a goal every game, how many times this season have we conceded more than 2. Of the top of my head only Charlton (a). Which sort of my emphasises my point that goals are so vital and Kebes assists are creating them. By all accounts apart from his assist Kebe didnt do that much on Tues but I dont think the management would be bothered as its so crucial to score.

I don't know stats but roughly between them Kebe and S Hunt have set up 30 goals, which is over a goal every 2 games. Also assists is a worst case scenario as it doesn't account for second balls, rebounds etc which indirectly lead to goals.

[Ian Royal]

But what does Kebe do when he doesn't get an assist. The majority of games he's played in? It's ok saying the management team are happy with him n a game where we win and he gets an assist. What about all the games recently where we've not scored, or conceeded.

He's got a lot of assists, but he hasn't played well enough consistently this season. He can be a total passenger in some games. Yet people will still see him as our biggest threat, despite the fact every run he had ended disappointingly because he's made poor decisions.

[cmonurz]

He's now the club's third-top scorer despite having only made 9 league starts

Third-top scorer, and of our strikers, he has made the third-most starts.

[Southbank Old Boy]

That really depends how many goals the oppo score because the team is playing with 10 men. If you had two wingers who each created two goals every game but you keep losing 10-2 because the defence is totally exposed then its not a lot of use is it?

Kebe isn't brilliant defensively but hes not costing us goals so its not like playing with 10 men. If we use your e.g. of two wingers setting up a goal every game, how many times this season have we conceded more than 2. Of the top of my head only Charlton (a). Which sort of my emphasises my point that goals are so vital and Kebes assists are creating them. By all accounts apart from his assist Kebe didnt do that much on Tues but I dont think the management would be bothered as its so crucial to score.

I don't know stats but roughly between them Kebe and S Hunt have set up 30 goals, which is over a goal every 2 games. Also assists is a worst case scenario as it doesn't account for second balls, rebounds etc which indirectly lead to goals.

It also doesnt fairly account for assists that he got when ducking out of a header at the back post or pulling a ball back past its intended recipient before somehow getting through to someone else to score

I am not knocking the number of assists Kebe has been credited but was merely pointing out that it isnt just ok for a winger to get a few assists (which isnt quite what you said in the first place I know) its how well the team plays and the results they get that really matters

[Snowball]

I believe we just scored at Norwich.

I missed who made the cross and who scored the goal...

[RFCUK]

what a fooking legend x 2

[Snowball]

SHANE LONG scores (again)


NINE goals in 1350 minutes (15 games equivalent) the most lethal striker for RFC this season

[rg6royal]

Took his goals well...fair play to the lad.

[howser]

The only thing the lad should have had was a season in the Championship during our first Premiership term, he has always had the ability, he showed that in our Championship winning season, good on the young fella, in his time over the past couple of years he has been much critised but has kept going in the reserves and has taken this latest chance with both hands, he is after all still a young lad learning his trade, one simple and one very good header tonight, well done son, keep it up.

[Alan Partridge]

Had Coppell not dropped him for his favourite Kitson would Reading already be assured of 2nd? One to ponder.

[Fezza]

Glad to be eating a large slice of humble pie!

[Schards#2]

Not been a fan but he was MOM even before he scored. Looks several times better than he has at any time in his career at the moment.

[1871royals]

Well done to Kebe and Long

Both of them have received unwarranted stick from the so called experts on here.

I wonder where the Kebe is the worst player ever posters are now?