EngLOLand - The Backlash!

[brendywendy]

TBM, totally agree on the Germans, although I think it's fair to say that in Ballack, Lahm and Schweinsteiger they have their squads big names (even if Ballack isn't there because of injury).

Unfortunately they're doing exactly what we should've been doing, ie playing a pretty English style of direct and pacey football without having the players with the technique or reputations of the Spanish, Argies or even Dutch. It's their teamwork and willingness to give up personal glory for the greater benefit of the team that our lot just didn't seem able to do. It's all about the egos!

Interestingly, I think that although the German squad is the youngest they've ever sent to world cup they've got more caps than the last one. So their young but not 'green' at this level.

There was an interesting artical from Klinsmann on the BBC this week about how they went about rebuilding when he took over, and how it almost all fell apart before their run of form in the World Cup. I do think we need something similar, but the Germans structure is so different to ours I'm not sure we can.

amazing to see the number of caps their yoof has got. huge numbers. must have been playing them for a year or two to get them ready. why oh why oh why dont we do this.

and im sick of everyone A. calling for us to just throw in the kids all at once. and B. bemoaning the fact that we dont have 23 new young players we can just drop into the team.

you dont throw out a whole team all at once, and there arent 23 new young brilliant players in any country, and there doesnt need to be, precisely because you dont throw out a whole team when you fail. you bring in the yoof gradually, as they become ready, and as the older players fade from the team. naturally.

[papereyes]

Can't see that being any real factor to be honest, for a number of reasons.

1, pretty much all of them play in European competitions
2, they all play with foreign imports in the Premiership so although day to day it's an English style, it's much less so than it used to be
and most importantly
3, it doesn't seem to have held back the Germans (all their squad play in Germany) or the Spanish (all bar 2 or 3 play in Spain)

I genuinely think 1 and 2 are missing the point somewhat. It's not that they're playing against or alongside certain players but the attitude and culture they're being brought up into. Its that day to day, training and living that would make the difference, imo. Certainly 1 or 2 genuinely don't seem to have made a difference thus far.

In terms of Germany, you've also got a range of backgrounds and wildly varying ethnicities than are clearly influencing the players to some extent. I'd perhaps suggest that the various Spanish players of Castillan, Catalan, Basque and Galician background have similar, if less pronounced, differences in outlook and attitude.

Still, I guess we'll find out in 2 years time, yeah?

[Negative_Jeff]

Supporters at English grounds will never take to the style of football required to succeed at international level. Last season Reading were hammering Scunny at home, creating loads of chances but the crowd were on the player`s backs every time the team tried to build from the back. We failed to win (again) and the manager was sacked the following week. With a different ethos under McDermott it is unlikely that a situation will arise where a defender will get stick for giving the ball away on the edge of the box in trying to play his way out. To build a successful England team our players need to keep the ball much better but the club owners, coaches and supporters are dead against it in favour of the short term.
Then again if the current England captain cannot comprehend basic tactics what chance have we got in the East Stand?

[Hoop Blah]

amazing to see the number of caps their yoof has got. huge numbers. must have been playing them for a year or two to get them ready. why oh why oh why dont we do this.

To some extent we do, but not well enough. The main problem is that we have players that perform really well week in week out in the league and it must be difficult to drop them if you're the England manager because you're hoping they'll recreate that (which to be fair they did pretty much do during qualifying).

Secondly they're the celebrities and big names.

im sick of everyone A. calling for us to just throw in the kids all at once. and B. bemoaning the fact that we dont have 23 new young players we can just drop into the team.

you dont throw out a whole team all at once, and there arent 23 new young brilliant players in any country, and there doesnt need to be, precisely because you dont throw out a whole team when you fail. you bring in the yoof gradually, as they become ready, and as the older players fade from the team. naturally.

You're right, you can't just throw in a new team, and the Germans certainly didn't. In fact Klinsmann said they basically took their new appraoch, gave it to the U21's to implement and then just patched up the first team in the meantime waiting for the fruit of their labours to come through (which I guess to a certain extent is now!).

They also had the same issue as us, where everyone thought they were doomed because they couldn't see any decent youngsters coming though. I think every major tournament shows us how you don't need the best individuals to succeed, but you do need a proper team ethic. It certainly helps to have better players, but if you can't shoe horn them into a squad who are really together then you need to kick a few out.

[brendywendy]

ive been struck by almost every other teams refusal to hump the ball up the pitch, the way the keepers always roll it out, the way they can recieve the ball under pressure, keep it, shield it, and release it, where we only seem to pass to an open player, and shit ourselves as soon as someone comes close and hoof it.and th eway other teams will happily pass it around in triangles around their own box instead of row z'ing it

we are shit.


but if it came to a choice between watching exciting end to end football in th e league, for ever, or winning the world cup id take the former.
so i guess im part of th eproblem

[TBM]

and im sick of everyone A. calling for us to just throw in the kids all at once. and B. bemoaning the fact that we dont have 23 new young players we can just drop into the team.

you dont throw out a whole team all at once, and there arent 23 new young brilliant players in any country, and there doesnt need to be, precisely because you dont throw out a whole team when you fail. you bring in the yoof gradually, as they become ready, and as the older players fade from the team. naturally.

No but you have the likes of Walcott, Johnson, Dawson, Hart, Lennon who are ready to play every game for the first team - we need to start giving these players games so they mould into International quality by the time the next world cup comes.

[Hoop Blah]

Can't see that being any real factor to be honest, for a number of reasons.

1, pretty much all of them play in European competitions
2, they all play with foreign imports in the Premiership so although day to day it's an English style, it's much less so than it used to be
and most importantly
3, it doesn't seem to have held back the Germans (all their squad play in Germany) or the Spanish (all bar 2 or 3 play in Spain)

I genuinely think 1 and 2 are missing the point somewhat. It's not that they're playing against or alongside certain players but the attitude and culture they're being brought up into. Its that day to day, training and living that would make the difference, imo. Certainly 1 or 2 genuinely don't seem to have made a difference thus far.

In terms of Germany, you've also got a range of backgrounds and wildly varying ethnicities than are clearly influencing the players to some extent. I'd perhaps suggest that the various Spanish players of Castillan, Catalan, Basque and Galician background have similar, if less pronounced, differences in outlook and attitude.

Still, I guess we'll find out in 2 years time, yeah?

Those were points directly in answer to TBMs 'we're not playing abroad' suggestion for why we failed, but I do take your point, what you're saying is that everyone else is more professional. I'm not sure I'd go along with it but I'm sure there are pro's and con's from all approaches.

To say that we've not adopted some of the culture and habits of the foreigners coming into the game is a bit odd though. The changes in the way clubs train, look after themselves and everything a player does these days as opposed to 20 years ago is testimony to the fact we have picked it up.

We still have a way to go before we get a perfect culture among the squad, but that's just a reflection of the society that the players come from surely.

[brendywendy]

and im sick of everyone A. calling for us to just throw in the kids all at once. and B. bemoaning the fact that we dont have 23 new young players we can just drop into the team.

you dont throw out a whole team all at once, and there arent 23 new young brilliant players in any country, and there doesnt need to be, precisely because you dont throw out a whole team when you fail. you bring in the yoof gradually, as they become ready, and as the older players fade from the team. naturally.

No but you have the likes of Walcott, Johnson, Dawson, Hart, Lennon who are ready to play every game for the first team - we need to start giving these players games so they mould into International quality by the time the next world cup comes.

agreed

should already have been in every england squad/training days, and already have numerous caps already, so they are ready to drop into a world cup campaign if required

[Hoop Blah]

There was no more tedious sight over the last footballing decade than England trying to play a possession game.

Totally agree.

We always seem to want to replicate the current in form team instead of concentrating on what we can do well and exploiting that.

I've always had a bit of a bee in my bonet about the obession with re-creating the French system that supposedly led to their successes with Zidane, Blanc, Thuram etc etc. Clairfontaine played a part in helping them prepare and bringing a few of the players through, and perhaps creating that 'team France' mentality, but basically they had a decent side (at least defensively) that was graced by their second, if not best, player of all time who made all the difference. Zidane made them tick, and their results when he didn't play just highlight I think.

[papereyes]

To say that we've not adopted some of the culture and habits of the foreigners coming into the game is a bit odd though. The changes in the way clubs train, look after themselves and everything a player does these days as opposed to 20 years ago is testimony to the fact we have picked it up.

I'm not saying we haven't, I was trying to say its markedly different to actually going abroad.

[sandman]

The criticism of Capello has become absurd now imo. Particularly people telling him to look at Spain and learn from the way they play. The man won la liga twice; I think he knows more about their set up than his critics.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

The criticism of Capello has become absurd now imo. Particularly people telling him to look at Spain and learn from the way they play. The man won the la liga twice; I think he knows more about their set up than his critics.

that is pretty stupid. Spain play they way they do because they have the players to play that style. Trying to impose that on the england team would be about as successful as Brendan Rodgers' tactical shift at Reading.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

The criticism of Capello has become absurd now imo. Particularly people telling him to look at Spain and learn from the way they play. The man won the la liga twice; I think he knows more about their set up than his critics.

that is pretty stupid. Spain play they way they do because they have the players to play that style. Trying to impose that on the england team would be about as successful as Brendan Rodgers' tactical shift at Reading.

^^^ greed.

We simply do not have the players.
I can't actually think of any players in our starting 11 who I would call World Class, apart from Ashley Cole (and it hurts to say that)

When you see players like Podolski & Kuyt give their all when playing out of position for their countries, its actually a bit embarassing to hear that Rooney can only cope with playing one way. Or that Gerrard can't shift to the wing. Or that Terry can't play on the left side of centre back.........If you're World CLOLass you should be able to shift across a position.

Until the press stop pandering to the players, nothing will change

And as for kids being ditched from youth teams as their not big and strong enough.......

[sandman]

I read an interview with Capello a couple of years ago where he said that he tries to incorporate a countries culture in the way his teams play which flies in the face of his critics assertion that he tried to get England to play in an Italian way.

442 is not a Fabio Capello invention we played it a long time before he arrived and probably will after he's left. 442 doesn't work but I can't see how a team of Englishman can play in any other way without the help of the foreign players they play with at club level.

[Hoop Blah]

Just for the record JMW, Podolski and Kuyt (although he played left not his more usual right last night) both play the positions they've played for their country for their clubs. Rooney and Gerrard have both played out of position for the national team and done quite well (see the qualifying campaign for evidence of Rooney/Gerrard sharing the defensive duties down the left) and Terrys natural side in the centre of the defence IS the left side.

Those players can play out of position and do but the problem is it reduces their effectiveness and the balance of the team and splits up solid partnerships on the pitch. Same things happen elsewhere too.

[sheshnu]

Did I hear correctly last night that Del Bosque only reveals his team 3 hours before kick off? Admittedly I haven't been paying attention to such things, but I don't recall the Spanish team coming out and whining like babies about it. To the outsider it looks like they just got on with it like professionals and, er, won the World Cup.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Just for the record JMW, Podolski and Kuyt (although he played left not his more usual right last night) both play the positions they've played for their country for their clubs. Rooney and Gerrard have both played out of position for the national team and done quite well (see the qualifying campaign for evidence of Rooney/Gerrard sharing the defensive duties down the left) and Terrys natural side in the centre of the defence IS the left side.

Those players can play out of position and do but the problem is it reduces their effectiveness and the balance of the team and splits up solid partnerships on the pitch. Same things happen elsewhere too.

Podolski as a left sided attacking midfielder for his club? Really? ....didnt know that

And my point was about Kuyt being on the left last night, and tbf I thought he had a decent game. Actually I think subbing him is what killed the game for the dutch as they were playing with 10 men after than (his replacement was woeful)

.....I still stand by my point that our supposed 'world class' players are always let off playing badly when 'out of position', when by rights we should hammer them for not being professional

[chilipepper91]

Did I hear correctly last night that Del Bosque only reveals his team 3 hours before kick off? Admittedly I haven't been paying attention to such things, but I don't recall the Spanish team coming out and whining like babies about it. To the outsider it looks like they just got on with it like professionals and, er, won the World Cup.

Was there ever any doubt who would play? The only possible swap was Torres for Pedro, and we were almost certain that wouldn't happen.

[Hoop Blah]

Just for the record JMW, Podolski and Kuyt (although he played left not his more usual right last night) both play the positions they've played for their country for their clubs. Rooney and Gerrard have both played out of position for the national team and done quite well (see the qualifying campaign for evidence of Rooney/Gerrard sharing the defensive duties down the left) and Terrys natural side in the centre of the defence IS the left side.

Those players can play out of position and do but the problem is it reduces their effectiveness and the balance of the team and splits up solid partnerships on the pitch. Same things happen elsewhere too.

Podolski as a left sided attacking midfielder for his club? Really? ....didnt know that

And my point was about Kuyt being on the left last night, and tbf I thought he had a decent game. Actually I think subbing him is what killed the game for the dutch as they were playing with 10 men after than (his replacement was woeful)

.....I still stand by my point that our supposed 'world class' players are always let off playing badly when 'out of position', when by rights we should hammer them for not being professional

I agree with the point, but I'm sure the examples you gave weren't necessarily the best (sure I've read and seen that Podolski has played out wide for club as well as country but I may well be wrong then).

I think the difference is that they're out of position in a balanced team and it's done do by coaches who are still building a proper team. Our lot seem to just be shoe-horning the high profile individuals into an unbalanced team and so you can just about understand some of their poor performances.

To be honest, I put down the poor England performance as a lot more than just a few out of position players not quite matching up to their club form.

[TBM]

There was a good point last night about Spain - where they play players in their best position and dont just give them a game (out of position) cos of their reputation - hence why Fabregas sits on the bench and doesn't get put wide left/right