Valley Parade Fire - 1985

[Ian Royal]

A lot of old folk died that day. Remember it clearly.

Discovered last week someone I used to have to deal with as part of my job was the grandson of one of the two Lincoln fans to die that day.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

If this had happened in the Norfolk Road stand at Elm Park in 85, I do not think the death toll would have been anywhere as high. Smaller stand, with open access to the pitch from the front, would have made it a lot easier to get out.

It also wouldn't have burned anywhere near as quickly. No rubbish under the seats to ignite, and no felt roof to rapidly burn either.

[From Despair To Where?]

It does make you wonder why the stand was wooden as well. In the space of 3 minutes the stand was alight

I think the most frightening thing about Elm Park was on the South Bank, where it was just the one walkway along the back of the stand. After Hillsborough and when I'd become fully aware of what had happened, it was unnerving. I also understand that in the early 90's a lot of the ticket booth operators were dismissed for holding the turnstiles from clicking, meaning the person who went through wouldnt count and therefore a fiver was pocketed. This is just hearsay so I dont know how true it is, but rather concerning all the same.

Didn't go to Elm Park until 1997 - were there fences on the front of the stand before then?

The stand had open access to the pitch but most of the terracing had fencing, the Tilehurst and Town ends having 8ft high fencing, similar to that at Hillsborough. The Tilehurst half of the South bank just had a 3ft wall and no fence and the South Bank itself had a 10ft high metal fence with downward pointing spikes facing in onto the terracing. The terracing wasn't penned in any more than in the late 1990's really. IIRC, the fencing on the home terracing came down in the close season after Hillsborough

I only sat in the stand maybe half a dozen times in 15 years but, although it felt ricketty, especially on the concourse, it never felt inherently unsafe. I also remember having to stand on the track around the pitch at half time to have a cig so I don't think you were allowed to smoke in it either.

There were certainly incidences in the 80's (I'm thinking Arsenal in the Cup in 87 in particular) where the ground was packed moreso than usual for a full house but the attendance came in bang on capacity. I also remember a cup tie with Newcastle that was all ticket but none of the tickets were numbered. It would't surpise me if turnstile operators were not counting and pocketing money. It was certainly rife elsewhere.

[Reading4eva]

I think with Elm Park the biggest area which would have been looked nowadays was the walkway along the back. Bar the steps down to the pitch there was an elevated area opposite the wall where people could stand, but didn't do so. I can remember the Wolves game when it was packed for FSBs return.

I still do miss the old grounds. If there was a mini standing area at the Mad Stad I would Definately go there!

[Jerry St Clair]

The Town End of the Southbank was properly dodgy when it had fencing.

I went in there when we played Chelsea in the League Cup in 1988 because my usual spot under the clock had a fukcing great temporary TV gantry in the way. About half way through the second half, Chelsea fans came over the wall into the South Bank. The fence at the front meant you couldn't get on to the pitch. But there was also a fence running from the back to the front. The only way out was through a gate on the walkway at the front or another one at the back. There was a rush to get away from the Chelsea fans and I remember being crushed up against the fence. I was ok, but I'm sure some people must have got hurt. Ended up leaving the game 20 mins early and missing the finest hour in a miserable season.

[From Despair To Where?]

I spent most of my time in the South Bank and don't remember it being particularly dodgy although I suppose its a matter of perspective and I never used the toilets. I was usually half way down about level with edge of the penalty area. I remember the Chelsea game well. The surge didn't seem that bad and certainly wasn't as bad as some of the surges in a packed South Bank when we scored, but then again, I wasn't near the gate at the back of the stand where a lot of the aggro was.

The barrier between the away end and the South Bank was basically a wooden fence with netting from the top to the roof so not much of a detterant to the determined dickhead.

What was sometimes a bit hairy was leaning against a crush barrier when a surge came from behind, had the wind knocked out of me a few times, or the old Left Side, Right Side 5,4,3,2,1 bundles, I fell over a couple of times in but there was always someone to haul you back on your feet. At at the time it seemed a bit of a laugh. In hindsight you can appreciate where problems could have occured and, maybe its not so funny.

Elm Park was a hell of a lot safer and better controlled than many grounds of the time, although, in the 80's away fans were always shoved in the most unsafe part of a ground and paid a premium for the privilege, so you never really got to see the better side of many grounds.

[Reading4eva]

Crewe 3-3 was another packed game. Despite the result, that was one of the most excting matches Ive ever seen if I was a neutral

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Crewe 3-3 was another packed game. Despite the result, that was one of the most excting matches Ive ever seen if I was a neutral

Which year? The 1997 one had a crowd of just 6700.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

There were certainly incidences in the 80's (I'm thinking Arsenal in the Cup in 87 in particular) where the ground was packed moreso than usual for a full house but the attendance came in bang on capacity.

That game got just under 17000. When was the previous 17000 crowd to compare?

I also remember a cup tie with Newcastle that was all ticket but none of the tickets were numbered. It wouldn't surpise me if turnstile operators were not counting and pocketing money.

The game didn't even sell out, drawing under 12000.

I'm sure there were dodgy turnstile guys everywhere, but it's unlikely the let in significant numbers of uncounted fans.

[Jerry St Clair]

I spent most of my time in the South Bank and don't remember it being particularly dodgy although I suppose its a matter of perspective and I never used the toilets. I was usually half way down about level with edge of the penalty area. I remember the Chelsea game well. The surge didn't seem that bad and certainly wasn't as bad as some of the surges in a packed South Bank when we scored, but then again, I wasn't near the gate at the back of the stand where a lot of the aggro was.

I was 10 years old so my recollection is probably tainted by the fact that I was about 5 feet tall at the time. The Right side was usually more empty because of the fences and restricted view, but for big games, with big crowds, it felt like a very confined pen.

[peterroyal76]

I actually saw the video of the fire yesterday for the first time, absolutely harrowing.

[From Despair To Where?]

There were certainly incidences in the 80's (I'm thinking Arsenal in the Cup in 87 in particular) where the ground was packed moreso than usual for a full house but the attendance came in bang on capacity.

That game got just under 17000. When was the previous 17000 crowd to compare?

I also remember a cup tie with Newcastle that was all ticket but none of the tickets were numbered. It wouldn't surpise me if turnstile operators were not counting and pocketing money.

The game didn't even sell out, drawing under 12000.

I'm sure there were dodgy turnstile guys everywhere, but it's unlikely the let in significant numbers of uncounted fans.

Certainly in the case of the Arsenal game, I would regard not being able to move for shit as having more potential for harm than being able to move about a bit. Elm Park was never realistically a 17,000 capacity stadium ( I don't remember it having an official capacity over 15,000, not that it was really an issue with our average attendances, but I may be wrong though) without some compromising of spectator safety. That's the point about the 80's though, cram them in and hope for the best. As I said Elm Park was nowhere near the worst ground in the league in this respect.

Also, are we talking about the same Newcastle game? We played them more than once in the cups over a period of 5 years.

[Royal With Cheese]

Elm Parks official capacity was 27,200 in 1985! it was reduced to 6,000 following recommendations from the local council just in time for us to go on our record breaking run!

It was slowly increased following various remedial works as we kept winning.

I do remember an associate of Mike Lewis telling me that the attendance for the Wolves game, the 14th in that season, was actually 10,000 more than the official records indicate.

Being there that night it did indeed feel like a 20,000+ crowd.

[Jerry St Clair]

Elm Parks capacity was 27,200 in 1985! it was reduced to 6,000 following recommendations from the local council just in time for us to go on our record breaking run!

Didn't they cordon off the back 6 rows of the Main Stand?

And was it the Wolves game that had an official attendance of around 13k? Mike Lewis, then MD, has since admitted it was much, much higher than that.

[Royal With Cheese]

Unofficially between 22 and 24,000 I was told.

I don't just think this was people letting the odd supporter through and pocketing a fiver!

[Royal With Cheese]

Allegedly.

[Deadlock]

I do remember an associate of Mike Lewis telling me that the attendance for the Wolves game, the 14th in that season, was actually 10,000 more than the official records indicate.

The same Mike Lewis that was convicted of fraudulent trading while a director of Exeter City? Fancy that.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I do remember an associate of Mike Lewis telling me that the attendance for the Wolves game, the 14th in that season, was actually 10,000 more than the official records indicate.

The same Mike Lewis that was convicted of fraudulent trading while a director of Exeter City? Fancy that.

Was that where he and his associates used to go round the turnstiles at Exeter with a large sack and empty the money into it so they could "count it at home"? Yes, I think it was...

[From Despair To Where?]

I do remember an associate of Mike Lewis telling me that the attendance for the Wolves game, the 14th in that season, was actually 10,000 more than the official records indicate.

The same Mike Lewis that was convicted of fraudulent trading while a director of Exeter City? Fancy that.

I wasn't going to mention Lewis's alleged creative accounting, however tempting it was. I was also aware of anecdotal evidence regarding to crowds significanty over capacity so thanks to those with better memories for backing up what I said. I stand by the suggestion that Elm Park was not a ground that could hold 17,000+ safely.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I wasn't going to mention Lewis's alleged creative accounting, however tempting it was. I was also aware of anecdotal evidence regarding to crowds significanty over capacity so thanks to those with better memories for backing up what I said. I stand by the suggestion that Elm Park was not a ground that could hold 17,000+ safely.

It was certainly damn scary being in a crowd of 27,500 vs Southampton in the League Cup in 78/79.