Sunderland Supporters banned

[TheMaraudingDog]

The people we're talking about are just normal supporters - certainly not any kind of "firm."

Have you seen the CCTV?

40 of the most set of likely lads you'll find, Stone Island badges, designer labels galore. That lot are very very far removed from your typical Sunderland fan.

I actually agree that banning them from the stadium is harsh but lets not make these supporters out to be 100% clean and innocent eh.

What would you do if you got to the wrong station by mistake? Would you bounce it of it in a mob or make your way to the platform for the next train to Sunderland?

[Hoop Blah]

Having just come back to this one, I really do think it looks like a bit of boo hoo grumbling by a load of lads who got caught up in something and don't like the consequences of their actions.

For Sunderland to take the action they have I reckong they're probably aware of most of them and are just taking the opportunity to ban a few they don't want in the ground because they're not quite in the spirit of the family club.

The snippet of their T&C's that Dirk posted didn't say found guilty in a court of law, it just said found guilty. I presume that's found guilty by the club, in which case they have been.

The people we're talking about are just normal supporters - certainly not any kind of "firm."

If they've been "found guilty by the club" they've certainly not had any kind of trial, not been shown any evidence, had any chance to answer the charges or any right of appeal - whcih is exactly what the key issue is. Those things are basic rights in life - why not in football?

The reason that it's so important is that if it can be done to them it can be done to absolutely any one of us.

I'll take your word on them just being 'normal fans' Dirk, I'd be interested to know exactly how you know though, do you know them all personally? Where you there?

I know plenty of 'normal fans' that might well have got mixed up in stuff in the past. Being 'normal' doesn't mean you might not transgress in all the 'excitement.'

I've no doubt the Police probably got a bit heavy handed, which again, I've not really got too much problem with. Live by the, sword die by the sword.

[Dirk Gently]

So it's much more like me phoning up the nightclub before you get there and telling them you're a trouble-maker - is that fair?

I think its more like me phoning up the nightclub after an incident they know about and saying you were involved. The nighclub then tells you you are barred till you can prove it wasn't you.

I'll accept that analogy - but that situation is just as unfair. However, you can still go to another nightclub. The emotional pull that a supporter has to the team they support is far greater than the loayalty to a particular nightclub.

And as for the selective CCTV footage, thats what the greater Manchester Police used as well in realtion to the Rangers fans in Manchester. Doesn't mean the fans ddn't misbehave.

And it doesn't mean these particular individuals did. Isn't it reasonable that they get a chance to prove that they didn't, instead of being guilty by association, just because they're football supporters?

I really think this "they were there so they must have been involved attitude" is one that we as supporters need to shake off. When we can trust the police to pick up the guilty - and only the guilty - then things will be fine, but we certainly can't do that now - there are way, way too many cases of the Police trying to make up their arrest numbers (or even using supporters as a test grond for trying out new tacticson).

Even more so just before a World Cup year, when there are actually CPS targets for the number of banning orders in each area. So never mind if people are guilty or not, the Police need to make their numbers.

Football supporters are automatically demonised and always assumed to be guilty just because of their chosen leisure activity - and far too many of you just seem to happy accept that as the way without a murmur.

[Dirk Gently]

The people we're talking about are just normal supporters - certainly not any kind of "firm."

Have you seen the CCTV?

40 of the most set of likely lads you'll find, Stone Island badges, designer labels galore. That lot are very very far removed from your typical Sunderland fan.

I actually agree that banning them from the stadium is harsh but lets not make these supporters out to be 100% clean and innocent eh.

What would you do if you got to the wrong station by mistake? Would you bounce it of it in a mob or make your way to the platform for the next train to Sunderland?

Firstly, they didn't get the chance to do anything - they were met off the train by police with dogs and riot gear.

But, as said before, whilst personally I'm convinced that they are innocent, that's utterly irrelevant. Until they're charged and either found guilty or not guilty then they have to be assumed to be not guilty.

It's as simple as that, and that's not what is happening here - they're being treated as guily without trial and without seeing any evidenc. It's not for the police, for officials at a football club or for people on a message board to decide if they're guilty or not. That's what the courts are for.

Just to further clarify, if people want to see the whole story laid, out as well as video taken at the time :

Timeline of events : http://www.fsf.org.uk/sunderlandfans/Mediawatch.php

A video was recorded by Sunderland fans just after the incident : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re0ArbzWh_E

On the local news a few days after the event : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOj9Fn4foXw&feature=related

[Hoop Blah]

Not really sure what that footage proves.

The only aggressive behaviour I can see on it is from the fans.

I can't see who is dealing with the guy presumably in the middle of the crowd or who was originally dealing with him, but if the Police didn't deal with him there may be a question mark over him.

Who on this clip has been banned Dirk? What happened in the previous exchanges?

[Jerry St Clair]

Jesus wept. If we, as football supporters, can't support the Sunderland fans then what hope have we got up against the general public perception that all football fans are hooligans?

[AF1]

Jesus wept. If we, as football supporters, can't support the Sunderland fans then what hope have we got up against the general public perception that all football fans are hooligans?

zatley, as i said already only half jokingly

Dunno why you bother here Dirk, expecting the middle class, bourgeois Reading fans to be able to identify with proper football supporters is utterly pointless imo

[Hoop Blah]

I'm nowhere near the 'middle class, bourgeois Reading fan' AF1 refers to. Pretty sure TMD is of a similar ilk.

I really don't think there is much of an issue here though. In my day you'd just deal with it, not go moaning to all on sundry on the internet trying to get back into my club like a spoilt little child.

Basically, people should sake responsibility for their own actions.

[Dirk Gently]

Basically, people should sake responsibility for their own actions.

Agree completely. Which particular actions is it that they're not taking responsibility for in this case?

[Hoop Blah]

Basically, people should sake responsibility for their own actions.

Agree completely. Which particular actions is it that they're not taking responsibility for in this case?

I knew that would be coming....and that's the crux of it isn't it really.

From what I've seen it looks like your typical bit of mob scuffling and the aftermath of it. I don't know who the people are who have been banned, or what happened before the you tube clip you linked you Dirk.

Do you?

I'd hazard a guess that the club, their safety officers and local Police know the people involved a little more than you and the rest of the do-gooders at the FSF.

I could well be wrong, but I think the no smoke without fire rule comes into play here.

[AF1]

I'm nowhere near the 'middle class, bourgeois Reading fan' AF1 refers to. Pretty sure TMD is of a similar ilk.

but tmd wasnt agreeing with you

I actually agree that banning them from the stadium is harsh

[TheMaraudingDog]

Reason I think its harsh is because in I agree with the original principle that you shouldn’t be banned from a football ground until found guilty of on offence in court.

What I’m not agreeing with is the moaning of police brutality. I’ve been in mobs before who are looking for aggro, we know it, the oppo know it and the OB know it. The OB actually thrive on it and love nothing more than getting there wooden sticks out and giving you a shoe-in. Anyone who travels in a mob know that the OB are England’s No 1 firm and in general you don’t mess with them. That’s why the Sunderland lot shouldn’t be moaning, travel in an angry mob get dealt with by an angry mob.

Sympathy for the banning yes, police brutality no.

Funny though innit when the FSF stick their noses in things tend to go tits up.

[Dirk Gently]

Basically, people should sake responsibility for their own actions.

Agree completely. Which particular actions is it that they're not taking responsibility for in this case?

I knew that would be coming....and that's the crux of it isn't it really.

From what I've seen it looks like your typical bit of mob scuffling and the aftermath of it. I don't know who the people are who have been banned, or what happened before the you tube clip you linked you Dirk.

Do you?

I'd hazard a guess that the club, their safety officers and local Police know the people involved a little more than you and the rest of the do-gooders at the FSF.

I could well be wrong, but I think the no smoke without fire rule comes into play here.

I've met some of them and have read the witness statements - many from non-football supporters who were at the station at the time. The irony is that many of those banned are much closer to middle class, bourgeois Reading fans - many are professionals with unblemished records.

But think about the implications of this "no smoke without fire rule." You're effectively saying that they happened to be in the vicinity of trouble so they must be involved somehow. Have you ever seen any trouble close at hand on the way to or at a football match?

The essential difference between what we're saying is that I'm saying "they're innocent until proved guilty" and you're saying "Well, they were on the station when this happened and so they're probably guilty." If you're happy to tolerate that way of thinking I just hope it never happens to you.....

[Dirk Gently]

Funny though innit when the FSF stick their noses in things tend to go tits up.

Again, I agree. In exactly the same way that ambulances cause accidents, because every time there's a serious accident you can be sure there'll be an ambulance along soon.

[Hoop Blah]

I'm not so much saying that the banning wasn't out of order, more that I hate this kind of organised bleating.

Dirk, having watched Reading for over 25 years I've seen plenty of trouble in and around football. Not sure how that changes things, although 99% of the time you can see it coming and avoid it if you want to.

As for being professionals with unblemished records, that doesn't rule anything out in my experience.

[AF1]

having watched Reading for over 25 years I've seen

having to use the 'I've been a supporter for this long blah blah...' argument = argument lost

[Dirk Gently]

I'm not so much saying that the banning wasn't out of order, more that I hate this kind of organised bleating.

Dirk, having watched Reading for over 25 years I've seen plenty of trouble in and around football. Not sure how that changes things, although 99% of the time you can see it coming and avoid it if you want to.

As for being professionals with unblemished records, that doesn't rule anything out in my experience.

One person's bleating is another person's protest action. What's the alternative, other than to meekly accept it? Should supporters not get together to stand up wfor what they believe in for fear of being labelled "bleaters"? So what sort of protest would be acceptable?

As a side-note, were the crowd that carried a coffin down the Occie Road in '83 bleating also? Where do you draw the line?

I'm sure you have seen plenty of trouble, as we all have - you can't always avoid it, and what if you got off a train right into the middle of it? This is made worse by the police quotas for arrests - and in this case it very much appears that the police cocked this operation up so badly that they had to make soem arrests to justfy the operation. No one thinks these people will ever actually be charged.

Regarding professionals - I agree. It takes all sorts - Just trying to involve the "middle class, bourgeois Reading fans" strand here.

[Hoop Blah]

having watched Reading for over 25 years I've seen

having to use the 'I've been a supporter for this long blah blah...' argument = argument lost

Why? I'm not saying it make me right, just putting context into my opinion because Dirk had asked a question regarding my experiences of crowd trouble.

I've followed England a bit too, and been to other high profile games with large crowds and a little bit of agro.

I don't see it as an arguement either really. I'm just expressing my opinion, which I know is going to be quite different to Dirk and his FSF buddies. It's all fair enough.

That Dirk has met some of those involved I'll happily admit he has a closer take on what might've happened, but, like the protesters in London that moaned about the Police and everything that went on that day, I think you have to realise what you're getting yourself into at times and avoid it when you see the warning signs.

[Hoop Blah]

One person's bleating is another person's protest action. What's the alternative, other than to meekly accept it? Should supporters not get together to stand up wfor what they believe in for fear of being labelled "bleaters"? So what sort of protest would be acceptable?

Personally, I'd favour a sorting it myself approach. I'm sure they've tried this as individuals, but I've not found any situation like this that taking it up personally can't resolve if there is nothing really that you've done wrong.

As a side-note, were the crowd that carried a coffin down the Occie Road in '83 bleating also? Where do you draw the line?

I'm sure you have seen plenty of trouble, as we all have - you can't always avoid it, and what if you got off a train right into the middle of it? This is made worse by the police quotas for arrests - and in this case it very much appears that the police cocked this operation up so badly that they had to make soem arrests to justfy the operation. No one thinks these people will ever actually be charged.

Regarding professionals - I agree. It takes all sorts - Just trying to involve the "middle class, bourgeois Reading fans" strand here.

I pretty much agree with the rest of what you say, although I just don't see much in the FSF campaign to make me think these lot were a well behaved group a little surprised to be getting off the train at the wrong station.

[Dirk Gently]

One person's bleating is another person's protest action. What's the alternative, other than to meekly accept it? Should supporters not get together to stand up wfor what they believe in for fear of being labelled "bleaters"? So what sort of protest would be acceptable?

Personally, I'd favour a sorting it myself approach. I'm sure they've tried this as individuals, but I've not found any situation like this that taking it up personally can't resolve if there is nothing really that you've done wrong.

Certainly have, that was teh first port of call. But while Sunderland refuse to even enter into any dialogue with them what esle can they do except appeal for support from other supporters?

As a side-note, were the crowd that carried a coffin down the Occie Road in '83 bleating also? Where do you draw the line?

I'm sure you have seen plenty of trouble, as we all have - you can't always avoid it, and what if you got off a train right into the middle of it? This is made worse by the police quotas for arrests - and in this case it very much appears that the police cocked this operation up so badly that they had to make soem arrests to justfy the operation. No one thinks these people will ever actually be charged.

Regarding professionals - I agree. It takes all sorts - Just trying to involve the "middle class, bourgeois Reading fans" strand here.

I pretty much agree with the rest of what you say, although I just don't see much in the FSF campaign to make me think these lot were a well behaved group a little surprised to be getting off the train at the wrong station.

We'll have to disagree on that. although everything I've seen and heard about this suggests the police were there waiting for trouble and didn't want to be disappointed.

But what happened on the station is really completely irrelevant to this - they might be the biggest villains on the planet, but they're entitled to due process, and until they're found guilty in a court (not in an office in a football ground or on a message board) then they're entitled to be treated as innocent people.