Weekend Football 27th-29th Oct

[frimmers3]

spurs slip into fourth place,despite not playing very well to date.largely unnoticed.and long may that last.

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

Its not as if Chelsea have any sort of track record in making false accusations about a referee after a game that they have lost, is it?

Oh..............................................


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... ds-newsxml

If ever there was a football club that lacked any class whatsoever it's Chelsea. Just remember the graceless and frankly boorish beahviour of Mourinho after the Czech incident at the Mad Stad - it's endemic in the way they run their club. For all that is bad in modern football, read Chelsea.

If their claims are investigated and shown to be unsubstantiated, and in light of the incident after the game in the referee's room, if they are hit with a massive fine and/or a points deduction they'd have little ground for complaint. I'd love to see it, but again can't see the authorities being strong enough to do it.

[Bandini]

Whilst it pains me to sympathise with Chelsea, Torres was fouled when he was sent off.

He can be fouled, and at the same time dive and thus deserve a yellow.

Excellent decision from the ref.

I cannot think of a single example in the history of football, in any country in the world, where a player has been booked for diving and was simultaneously given a free kick for the foul committed on him.

If Clatters thought it was a foul, he'd have given Chelsea a free kick, he didn't and was wrong.

Neither can I. But I have seen numerous occasions when that decision (or decisions) should have been given.

I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping for a situation where a defender gets red-carded for preventing a goal-scoring opportunity in the box, the forward gets booked for diving, scores the penalty goes to celebrate in the crowd, gets a second booking, only for th penalty to need to be retaken because of encroachment by the attacking team, with the resulting melee leading to several more yellows (and hopefully reds).

Referees need to put a bit of stick about.

[Hoop Blah]

Just for clarification, law 12 states a caution can be given when a player:

attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation).

He did neither of those so I don't see how it can be a correct decision. Evans fouled him, of that I don't think there is any doubt. Yes Torres may have gone down a little too easily but the law states that simulation is pretending to be fouled so being a bit of a tart, going down too easily or making the decision to go down instead of carrying on because you don't think the ref will apply advantage correctly isn't a bookable offence.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Just for clarification, law 12 states a caution can be given when a player:

attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation).

He did neither of those so I don't see how it can be a correct decision. Evans fouled him, of that I don't think there is any doubt. Yes Torres may have gone down a little too easily but the law states that simulation is pretending to be fouled so being a bit of a tart, going down too easily or making the decision to go down instead of carrying on because you don't think the ref will apply advantage correctly isn't a bookable offence.

He did, though. He "pretended to be fouled" a pace later than the point at which he was actually caught, when he lifted his legs and went to ground.

[Hoop Blah]

He was fouled though.

He may well have been able to stay on his feet if he'd really wanted to, but he was still fouled as Evans made contact with him. That's a foul Dirk whichever way you look at it, minimal contact or not.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

He was fouled though.

He may well have been able to stay on his feet if he'd really wanted to, but he was still fouled as Evans made contact with him. That's a foul Dirk whichever way you look at it, minimal contact or not.

But football is a contact sport, and not every contact is a foul. It's only a foul if the referee sees it and decides it is a foul.

I agree that Torres might well have been awarded a foul if he'd gone down immediately - not a pace later in such a blatant fashion. Such an obvious attempt to win a free kick would probably make any referee's thought process work along the lines "if he's had to dive like that he can't have been fouled."

[Bandini]

Just for clarification, law 12 states a caution can be given when a player:

attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation).

He did neither of those so I don't see how it can be a correct decision. Evans fouled him, of that I don't think there is any doubt. Yes Torres may have gone down a little too easily but the law states that simulation is pretending to be fouled so being a bit of a tart, going down too easily or making the decision to go down instead of carrying on because you don't think the ref will apply advantage correctly isn't a bookable offence.

I'm pretty sure that it says "shall" be given or "must" rather than "can". In any event in addition to Sasha's comments, he did feign injury, clutching his knee.

[Hoop Blah]

It is a contact sport yes, but the type of contact that Evans made, ie with his foot on Torres' leg in an unsuccessful attempt to win the ball, isn't legal. It should've been a foul and the ref got it wrong.

Obviously in this case the ref hasn't given it, presumably because he thinks there's been no contact, and so he's given him a yellow card. It's a mistake, you can't just say it wasn't a foul because the ref didn't give it, that was the mistake I'm pointing out!

[Deadlock]

I don't think it was a foul, it was a tackle. Certainly wasn't careless or using excessive or reckless force.

[Hoop Blah]

I'm pretty sure that it says "shall" be given or "must" rather than "can". In any event in addition to Sasha's comments, he did feign injury, clutching his knee.

The 'can' bit wasn't the quote, so forgive me, I used my our langauge there.

As for the holding his knee, I'm not sure he's doing anything of the sort really. He falls, his hands hit the deck then grab his legs as he goes into a ball. I've not seen a reply and or angle that makes it look, to me, like he's feigning injury (especially seeing as he's sat on his kees by the time Clattenburg gets to him with the card).

Were you really suggesting that the card was for grabbing his knee and not the 'dive'?

[Hoop Blah]

I don't think it was a foul, it was a tackle. Certainly wasn't careless or using excessive or reckless force.

But it was a mistimed tackle that didn't win the ball and caught the player. That's still a foul.

[winchester_royal]

He did dive though because that contact wasn't close to being enough to bring him down.

From the referee's angle it was pretty clear that Torres fell to the ground voluntarily and for that reason I believe it was the correct decision.

And if it wasn't then it makes up for all the times that he has dived and not been booked.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Were you really suggesting that the card was for grabbing his knee and not the 'dive'?

The two go together to help reinforce the point that it's simulation. I've definitely seen him clutch his knee as if in pain, which is ludicrous if he was caught on his shin-pad.

[Hoop Blah]

I think you're seeing things you want to see to be honest, or reading into it more than there is. Yeah he falls to the ground easily, and as he rolls he grabs his knee. He isn't writhing around in [false] pain, he just rolls holds it then comes out of his rolled up ball to sit on his knees (from all the clips I've seen anyway).

He falls on that knee as he 'dives' and so perhaps he's jarred it, or thinks he might, as he's gone to ground. But feigning injury? Nope, really don't see it.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Maybe, but from the very late fall, and the knee-clutching, it's very easy to see why the referee came to the conclusion he did.

And many would say that Torres got what he deserved, because to many the dive was a "worse" offence than the foul. I know the Law of the Game don't work like that, but for many a dive is a worse offence than a "routine" foul.

[Hoop Blah]

Maybe, but from the very late fall, and the knee-clutching, it's very easy to see why the referee came to the conclusion he did.

Agreed, I've never said it wasn't understandable, but it was a mistake all the same.

Did Torres get what he deserved? Possibly, and don't forget the incident with Cleverly (which I haven't seen but it sounds nasty) which he could've been punished for as well.

Did Evans get what he deserved for his lung and arguably cynical foul at an important time of the game? I know it doesn't work like that, and I don't really care, but I do think talk of the Torres decision being 'correct' is just rubbish.

[Schards#2]

He was fouled though.

He may well have been able to stay on his feet if he'd really wanted to, but he was still fouled as Evans made contact with him. That's a foul Dirk whichever way you look at it, minimal contact or not.

But football is a contact sport, and not every contact is a foul. It's only a foul if the referee sees it and decides it is a foul.

I agree that Torres might well have been awarded a foul if he'd gone down immediately - not a pace later in such a blatant fashion. Such an obvious attempt to win a free kick would probably make any referee's thought process work along the lines "if he's had to dive like that he can't have been fouled."

Eh????

A foul is a foul whether the ref sees it or not, it's only a free kick if the ref sees it.

I don't think we as, at best, clumping park players, can judge how much contact is required for a professional whose game is built around pace and balance to go down. Indeed, if they see a horror tackle coming at them, it's quite legitimate to go down with no contact whatsoever to avoid injury, and it would be a red card for the tackler's intent.

[6ft Kerplunk]

As the refs and assistants are all have microphones why don't they just record the feed for the full match? That way they can just play back the recording if these type of incidents occur. Plus if they think their voice may well get recorded the players may think twice before dishing out all kinds of abuse to ref and getting a bit precious if anything is said back. Actually wasn't this done as a experiment in the late 80s/early 90s with David Ellery?

[Super_horns]

Yes.

Officials just need to be strong and punish abusive behaviour like they do in rugby which is why it doesn't happen in that sport.