How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

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FiNeRaIn
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How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by FiNeRaIn » 11 Apr 2010 00:47

Article in the guardian. Great article and really, english football really is cringe worthy in comparison.



In Germany the fan is king. The Bundesliga has the lowest ticket prices and the highest average attendance of Europe's five major leagues. At Borussia Dortmund their giant stand holds 26,000 and costs little more than £10 for admission. Clubs limit the number of season tickets to ensure everyone has a chance to see the games, and the away team has the right to 10% of the available capacity. Match tickets double as free rail passes with supporters travelling in a relaxed atmosphere in which they can sing, drink beer to wash down their sausages, and are generally treated as desirables: a philosophy English fans can only dream of.

The Bundesliga may be Europe's only fit and proper football league – the sole major domestic competition whose clubs collectively make a profit – yet no German team has won the Champions League for nine years. This success rate, though, could be about to change following Bayern Munich's advance to the semi-finals, following their thrilling disposal of Manchester United last week at Old Trafford.

"The Bundesliga as a brand, a competition, is in good shape. We have a very, very interesting competition, a stable and sustainable business model that relies on three revenue sources," the Bundesliga chief executive, Christian Seifert, tells Observer Sport. A holy trinity comprising match-day revenue (€424m), sponsorship receipts (€573m) and broadcast income (€594m) is the main contributor to the Bundesliga's €1.7bn turnover.

A glance at the continent's other major leagues confirms the state the sport is in. On these shores Portsmouth dice with extinction, while Manchester United and Liverpool build mammoth debt mountains. In Spain, where debts are just as high, La Liga players may strike because of unpaid wages in the lower divisions. The stadiums of Italy are half-filled, and in France their clubs spend more of their income (71%) on players' wages than those of any country.

Seifert says the success of the Bundesliga is because of the "core value" of the supporter coming first at its clubs. This is why tickets are kept so cheap. "Because the clubs don't ask for more money," he explains. "It is not in the clubs' culture so much [to raise prices]. They are very fan orientated. The Bundesliga has €350m less per season than the Premier League in matchday revenues. But you could not from one day to another triple prices.

"Borussia Dortmund has the biggest stand in the world. The Yellow Wall holds 26,000, and the average ticket price is €15 (£13) because they know how valuable such a fan culture and supporter base is.

"We have a very interesting situation. First, tickets are cheap. Second, many clubs limit the percentage of season tickets. For instance, Borussia Dortmund, Schalke 04, Hamburg, Bayern Munich. They want to give more fans the chance to watch games live. If you have 80%, 100% then it is all the same people in the stadium. Also in Germany the guest club has the right to 10% of the tickets for its fans."

Last season La Liga attracted an average of 28,478 fans, Ligue 1 21,034, Serie A 25,304 and the Premier League 35,592. These figures are dwarfed by the Bundesliga's average of 41,904. Its soaring attendances are matched by a balanced approach to salaries. "The crucial thing in last year's €1.7bn turnover and €30m profit was that Bundesliga clubs paid less than 50% of revenue in players wages," Seifert says. This is the continent's lowest. In 2007‑08 [the most recent available year] the Premier League paid out 62%.

All this prudent financial management is achieved despite the Bundesliga's television income being a modest €594m compared with the Premier League's lucrative return of €1.94bn. Seifert explains the disparity. "The TV market in Germany is very special. When pay-TV was introduced in 1991 the average household already received 34 channels for free. Therefore we had the most competitive free TV market in the world, so this influenced the growth of pay-TV very much. We were forced to show all of the 612 games of the Bundesliga and second Bundesliga live on pay-TV. So we have to carry the production costs of this."

No Bundesliga team has won the Champions League since Bayern Munich beat Valencia in 2001 and its last finalist was Bayer Leverkusen, eight years ago. But Seifert disputes whether the small return from television rights has been a defining factor in this record. "Money-wise, Bayern Munich is ranked in the first four clubs of Europe. And bear in mind even Chelsea, which spent a hell of a lot of money in the last years, didn't win it. Sometimes you could have the feeling that the ability to win the Champions League goes in line with your willingness to burn a hell of a lot of money. For that reason I think Uefa is on very good track with their financial fair play idea."

Deloitte's accountancy figures for the 2007-08 season show all but one Premier League club (Aston Villa) to be in debt. Compare this with the Bundesliga report for last season, which offers a markedly disappointed tone when recording that "only 11 of the 18 clubs are now in the black".

Pressed further on the lack of success in Europe's premier club competition Seifert argues for sport's cyclical nature. "At the end of the 1990s the Bundesliga was the strongest in Europe. In 1997 we had won the Champions League [Borussia Dortmund] and the Uefa Cup [Schalke]," he says.

"Then in 1999, 2001 and 2002 we were in the final at least. In those days the Premier League had more money, too. It depends not only on money but the quality you have – if it only depended on money then Porto wouldn't have played Monaco in the 2004 final."

Seifert also points to German football's success in producing its own players. This is borne out by Germany being European champions at under-17, under-19, and under-21 level. "The Bundesliga and German FA made a right decision 10 years ago when they decided that to obtain a licence to play you must run an education camp [academy]. The Bundesliga and second Bundesliga spend €75m a year on these camps.

"Five thousand players aged 12-18 are educated there, which has now made the number of under-23-year-olds in the Bundesliga 15%. Ten years ago it was 6%. This allows more money to be spent on the players that are bought, and there is a bigger chance to buy better, rather than average, players," Seifert says of a league in which the stellar performers currently include Bayern's Frank Ribéry and Arjen Robben.

"When Bayern played against Manchester United Philipp Lahm, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Holger Badstuber and Thomas Müller were all homegrown," Seifert says. "So yes, it's a cyclical environment and you have to deal with that. Therefore I'd deny that you could really say whether a league is strong or weak just because one club wins or does not win the Champions League."

Seifert's view is supported by Arsenal having followed United out of the competition last week, when Arsène Wenger's team were dismantled by Barcelona, to leave no Premier League presence in the semi-finals for the first time since 2003. And for the 2012-13 season Germany should have four places in the Champions League as by then they should have overtaken Serie A in Uefa's five-year coefficients.

Seifert also has Spain in his sights. "If we consider our financial capabilities and the stability of our business model, then the aim of the Bundesliga in the long run has got to be second place behind the Premier League," he says.

Of all the Bundesliga's regulations, the recent history of English football suggests it might have benefited most from the 50+1 rule. This states that members of a club must retain at least 51% ownership, so preventing any single entity taking control. Portsmouth are the most glaring example of how an outsider might potentially ruin a club – their administrator is currently searching for their fifth owner of this season – and the Bundesliga recently reiterated the commitment to the rule following a challenge from Hannover 96.

Martin Kind, Hannover's president, wished to change the regulation. He told Observer Sport: "The rule means the loss of many Bundesliga clubs' ability to compete nationally and internationally. And in some ways it prevents further development of German football, especially those clubs who play in the lower half of the Bundesliga as they do not have enough financial resources. The ownership rule should be abandoned or modified."

While Kind adds that his lawyers believe he has a "good chance" of winning the case when it is heard at the court of arbitration for sport this year, Seifert is proud that when the 36 clubs that comprise the Bundesliga's two divisions voted on the issue "35 were against".

There are exceptions to the 50+1 rule. Yet even these appear couched in common sense. Seifert again: "Bayer Leverkusen and Wolfsburg [whom Fulham knocked out of the Europa Cup on Thursday] are two. If a company is supporting football in a club for more than 20 years then it can acquire the majority. The idea is that a company has by then proved to fans and the league that they take their engagement in the Bundesliga seriously, that it's not just a fancy toy or part-time cash injection that [could] change from one day to another."

What the Bundesliga does allow to be transformed from one season to the next is the prospect of any and all its clubs mounting a realistic tilt at the title as Wolfsburg's triumph, the first in their 64-year history, proved last season.

"In the last three years of the Bundesliga we have three different cup winners and three different champions," Seifert says. "Sepp Herberger, the coach of the West German team that won the 1954 World Cup, said: 'You know why people go to the stadium? Because they don't know how it ends."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... ier-league

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Messiah » 11 Apr 2010 10:25

Those stands are incredible. Credit where it's due, they put the fans first where as we don't here. TV revenue matters more than the average football supporter now.

...and they have safe standing.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by RG30 » 11 Apr 2010 12:08

Rather than go to Blackpool earlier in the season, I went to Germany where I watched two Bundesliga games (Borussia Dortmund Vs Hannover & Wolfsburg Vs Schalke) + a Bundesliga II match (Fortuna Dusseldorf Vs Aahlen) and the whole weekend was a true football fan-friendly experience at affordable prices. The players also have a real connection with the fans and for the Dusseldorf game, I went in with the away fans (tip go with the away fans rather than the home fans) and after a heavy defeat, a number of the players came over to talk to the fans and it was good to see.

As a side issue I've now been to the following German grounds:

Frankfurt
Schalke
Hertha Berlin
Fortuna Dusseldorf (55,000 seated for 2nd tier, great stadium)
Borussia Dortmund
Wolfsburg

I've got a couple of mates who know some Bochum/Mainz fans so that's on the list next + I'm desperate to go Munich soon.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by FiNeRaIn » 11 Apr 2010 12:28

Keep us updated mate, i've taken a liking to Hamburg due to the Rangers connection but I also like Dortmund, used to love their side in the 90's. German football is far more competitive than the English, we should be ashamed what our league has turned into.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Messiah » 11 Apr 2010 12:54

FiNeRaIn German football is far more competitive than the English, we should be ashamed what our league has turned into.


Really? How so?

This is one of the most competitive championship races for many many years, and our 'top four' been pretty formidable in the Champions League in recent years. I'd say our league is one of, if not the strongest league in the world.


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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by cmonurz » 11 Apr 2010 12:56

Competitive how? Three of the traditional top four are fighting it out for the title, and the most likely destination of 4th place is the new billionaires' club Man City, likely to replace Liverpool in the Champions League, the club that of the big clubs is having most financial turmoil off the pitch.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by RG30 » 11 Apr 2010 13:03

I'll let FiNeRaIn list the number of different winners of the Bundesliga in recent years.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Messiah » 11 Apr 2010 13:15

cmonurz Competitive how? Three of the traditional top four are fighting it out for the title, and the most likely destination of 4th place is the new billionaires' club Man City, likely to replace Liverpool in the Champions League, the club that of the big clubs is having most financial turmoil off the pitch.


Competitive in the sense that it's a three horse race for once, which I agree makes for a pleasant change, and the so called big four is changing, with Man City, Spurs and Villa all providing good competition for the fourth Champions League place.

I wasn't comparing to any other league, merely highlighting that this season has been far more competitive than previous years.

I asked FineRain "How so?" because I'd like to know more about their league - I don't follow German football.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Dirk Gently » 11 Apr 2010 15:28

Messiah
FiNeRaIn German football is far more competitive than the English, we should be ashamed what our league has turned into.


Really? How so?

This is one of the most competitive championship races for many many years, and our 'top four' been pretty formidable in the Champions League in recent years. I'd say our league is one of, if not the strongest league in the world.


Three clubs out of 20 in a race for the title does not equal "competitive."

Competitive is when the vast majority of the clubs in a league have a chance of winning it.


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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Messiah » 11 Apr 2010 15:34

The vast majority you say? More than half a league? Are there any top leagues in the world that have a 'vast majority' that can win thier top flight league then? :|

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by soggy biscuit » 11 Apr 2010 15:38

With 7 games left in the French league there is just 5 points seperating the top 6 teams, The final Champions League spot is not an unrealistic goal for Monaco who are currently in 9th

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 11 Apr 2010 15:39

RG30 As a side issue I've now been to the following German grounds:

Frankfurt
Schalke
Hertha Berlin
Fortuna Dusseldorf (55,000 seated for 2nd tier, great stadium)
Borussia Dortmund
Wolfsburg


I love having the odd long weekend in Germany, taking in two or three games. I've been to Cologne, Borussia Dortmund, Hanover, Nuremburg, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich, Leipzig, Berlin, Kaiserslautern, Stuttgart, Wiesbaden, Fortuna Dusseldorf, Kickers Offenbach, Aachen (old stadium) and Duisburg.

Tickets aren't quite as cheap as every seems to think (especially now that the pound has dived in value). Terracing is cheap, but seats tend to go from lows of around £15 up to £50.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 11 Apr 2010 15:41

Messiah The vast majority you say? More than half a league? Are there any top leagues in the world that have a 'vast majority' that can win thier top flight league then? :|

Not in any one season, but overall.

the vast majority of the premiership teams have no chance of ever even challenging for the title, let alone winning it, unless a billionaire buys them.

We used to laugh at the scottish league because Rangers & Celtic were always at the top with the rest having no chance. The premiership is exactly the same now.


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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by papereyes » 11 Apr 2010 16:17

Messiah
cmonurz Competitive how? Three of the traditional top four are fighting it out for the title, and the most likely destination of 4th place is the new billionaires' club Man City, likely to replace Liverpool in the Champions League, the club that of the big clubs is having most financial turmoil off the pitch.


Competitive in the sense that it's a three horse race for once, which I agree makes for a pleasant change, and the so called big four is changing, with Man City, Spurs and Villa all providing good competition for the fourth Champions League place.

I wasn't comparing to any other league, merely highlighting that this season has been far more competitive than previous years.

I asked FineRain "How so?" because I'd like to know more about their league - I don't follow German football.


and what might be special about this season as opposed to others?

Significantly, the chickens coming home to roost in terms of football finance, with both Liverpool and United having to cut down their expenditure in light of their debts.

It's all about money. This year, Villa have had 4 seasons of £20 million PLUS net spend, Spurs have had a couple of seasons of Harry 'frugality' Redknapp and City have had two seasons of their big money signings. Further to that, Liverpool and United have had less to spend - United didn't reinvest much of that Ronaldo fee, as a sly example. Luckily, they have the manager they have.

In terms of German football, yes, Bayern Munich dominate. But since 2002-3 (a relatively arbitary date chosen because that's when Abramovich came in), Bremen, Stuttgart and Wolfsburg have all won the Bundesliga, while my memory tells me Schalke, Hamburg and Dortmund have all come close in recent years.

I'd look back for 'teams that have qualified for the CL', which might be instructive. I did this for Spain earlier a few months ago but can't find it.

EDIT - yes, its a good a good article but its been one of many in recent years. At the heart of it, the whole ethos of the Bundesliga is markedly different to that of the Premiership. There's a bit of me who thinks that the Championship could market itself more on the lines of the Bundesliga but then teams might struggle more upon promotion to the Premiership.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Messiah » 11 Apr 2010 16:59

I'm not making a comparison. Simply asking how competitive the German league is.

As for ours, what makes it more special this season compared to previous? do you need to ask? It's not a two horse race, it's a three way fight for the league. Also, as said, there is Man City, Aston Villa, Liverpool and Spurs pushing for 4th spot. That's a lot more competitive than it has been in the last few years.

In no way does the Premier League compare to the Bundesliga in terms of competitiveness, as stated. I wish the Premier League was that open!

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by LoyalRoyalFan » 11 Apr 2010 17:30

English football is still the strongest in the world. It's not only the Premier League, but the lower league football is in far greater condition than any other country in the world.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by FiNeRaIn » 11 Apr 2010 19:47

LoyalRoyalFan English football is still the strongest in the world.


No its not. What do you base this on?

To answer the earlier question in the past three years there have been 3 different winners in the bundesliga and there is a chance for a 4th this season, but its not just that, the cup competitions are different too. Shock horror in england its either man united or chelsea in both league and cup....yawn. Good to see the english teams put out the champs league this season, they play appalling football with no technical skill and boast being the greatest around its cringe worthy and im glad this'll be the second season in a row without a winner here. The championship however is good, we do have the best lower leagues around and thats pretty respectable. In both attendance and quality i'd say there aren't any better.
Just a shame that our prem is so predictable and money driven.

I watched the premiership years the other day and it was the 97 season, some great results, good english players, great old kits and some epic games for one where southampton beat man utd 6-3, newcastle beat them 5-0 and wimbledon battered chelsea. The good old days where games were twice as entertaining and half the price. Then we were sold out.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by Messiah » 11 Apr 2010 19:50

FiNeRaIn I watched the premiership years the other day and it was the 97 season, some great results, good english players, great old kits and some epic games for one where southampton beat man utd 6-3, newcastle beat them 5-0 and wimbledon battered chelsea. The good old days where games were twice as entertaining and half the price. Then we were sold out.


Poor examples.

At that time Newcaslte were a top 4 ish club? Chelsea were bog standard Premiership fodder.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by FiNeRaIn » 11 Apr 2010 19:56

Not poor examples at all you buffoon. Man united were champions and newcastle beat them 5-0 - when was the last time that happened in the last few years in a chelsea vs united game? ( conveniently you miss the Southampton example also who finished 16th) Chelsea also won the FA cup that year and finished 6th, please think before your next reply.
Not to mention the liverpool vs newcastle games either.

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Re: How the Bundesliga puts the Premier League to shame

by 1871 Royal » 12 Apr 2010 07:37

For once I actually agree with Finerain on all points!

Have always thought that German football is rather entertaining but have never been to a game so wasn't sure on the prices and after reading the article it seems that Bundesliga > Premiership for the whole match-day experience!

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