Chumps League - It's a knockout

[Baines]

English clubs have truly become the Italians of Europe. I don't think the games were that boring though.

LOL

In relation to the intended meaning of your post, the English clubs competing in Europe over the past few years are similar to the Italian clubs of the 80s and early 90s only in that the best players tend to gravitate towards them. Man U's performance on Tuesday was not in the slightest bit reminiscent of an Italian team playing away from home in decades past.

[daswonder]

English clubs have truly become the Italians of Europe. I don't think the games were that boring though.

LOL

In relation to the intended meaning of your post, the English clubs competing in Europe over the past few years are similar to the Italian clubs of the 80s and early 90s only in that the best players tend to gravitate towards them. Man U's performance on Tuesday was not in the slightest bit reminiscent of an Italian team playing away from home in decades past.

English clubs apart from Arsenal do sit back and just defend in europe.

It took them long enough but the style they adapt in the premier league just does not work in europe or as shown at international level.

[Baines]

Liverpool's play is reminiscent of old Italian sides, but even they reflect the changes in the game since the 80s/90s.

Neither Man U nor Arsenal are recognisable in the slightest as old-style Italian sides.

Chelsea may not attack, but they have a reliance on pace and power which also makes a marked contrast to old Italian sides.

The game has moved on and simple comparisons with the way it was played in the past are inapt.

[bobbybottler]

If anything, Liverpool's current style of play in Europe reminds me of Liverpool's style of play in Europe in the 1970s and 1980s.

Overly defensive, with possession rarely being risked with a forward pass, and happy to rely on individual moments of inspiration. Nottingham Forest were happy to emulate this style

By the way, I am not intending to be uncomplimentary, Liverpool's haul of European Cups speaks for itself.

[Hoop Blah]

English clubs apart from Arsenal do sit back and just defend in europe.

It took them long enough but the style they adapt in the premier league just does not work in europe or as shown at international level.

I wouldn't say thats the case for United though.

Fergie tried to alter their style for European games a few years ago and it didn't work. From what I've been bothered to watch they now play in Europe in pretty much the same way they play in the Premiership.

Liverpool and Chelsea both play very similar styles in Europe as they do domestically, it's just more effective in Europe.

[daswonder]

English clubs apart from Arsenal do sit back and just defend in europe.

It took them long enough but the style they adapt in the premier league just does not work in europe or as shown at international level.

I wouldn't say thats the case for United though.

Fergie tried to alter their style for European games a few years ago and it didn't work. From what I've been bothered to watch they now play in Europe in pretty much the same way they play in the Premiership.

Liverpool and Chelsea both play very similar styles in Europe as they do domestically, it's just more effective in Europe.

Apart from against Inter the other night and against smaller sides, United have been defensive.

Perfect example was their tie against Barcelona last season, for a side that each day is bragging about attacking talent they parked a row of buses against them.

[Archie's penalty]

Glad that my comment has caused a bit of discussion here.

It was a bit throwaway to be honest but I think that Liverpool and Chelsea certainly have an element of the old 'Italian' style that conquered Europe from the early 90's onwards. I.e they sit back, soak up pressure and hit teams on the break while trying to grab the 'crucial (tm)' away goal. There is nothing wrong with that if it brings success.

English sides used to have problems with their defence but we seemed to have sorted that out - four games against top European sides - goals conceded zip.

Still I'd rather watch Bayern or Barca - Ribery is a brilliant player - maybe the best in Europe at the moment.

And whilst the Champion's league has a good amount of repetitiveness about it - I still get excited the closer it gets to the final - perhaps it's because Spring starts to bloom on the way...

[Harry Carry]

25 goals in 50 CL games for Drogba.

[bobbybottler]

Glad that my comment has caused a bit of discussion here.

It was a bit throwaway to be honest but I think that Liverpool and Chelsea certainly have an element of the old 'Italian' style that conquered Europe from the early 90's onwards. I.e they sit back, soak up pressure and hit teams on the break while trying to grab the 'crucial (tm)' away goal. There is nothing wrong with that if it brings success.

You've described catenaccio, which brought (most notably) Inter Milan success in the mid-1960s until CeLOLtic blew it apart in Lison.

AC Milan's early 1990s success was based on a more aggressive style of defence i.e. not sitting back, but pressing the man with the ball. I was going to call this "English" until I recalled that Ajax (and hence Holland) used this in the early 1970s. Certainly I can recall the "I (heart) Milan pressing" t-shirts that C4 used to pick out in the Guiseppe Meazza crowd in the early 1990s.

[Harry Carry]

I reckon Chelsea could go out now. Juve will be better at home.

[Whore Jackie]

They can shut up shop and defend better than almost anyone, Rafa has suceeded there.

In Europe that works fine because teams will actually try to attack them and then they can try and nick a win with the likes of Gerrard and Torres good enough to score against anyone. I'd hardly call that tactical genius, especially when it's taken so long and so much money to get the right players to make it work.

If he were a tactical genius he'd figure out a way of making that team a little more effective at winning games at home against sides with playing resources miles away from those at his disposal.

They won't win the league with Rafa in charge. If that's good enough for Liverpool then fair enough, but I can't imagine it is.

You suspect that Liverpool fans priorities have changed since the weekend. Success in the CL is much more attainable than winning the league title. That’s always been the charge with Rafa as manager. It seems an odd trait to be so blasé about domestic honours. What will hurt fans much more is the likelihood of Manchester United levelling the title score at 18 apiece.

[Hoop Blah]

You suspect that Liverpool fans priorities have changed since the weekend.

In the short term yes, because it now looks unlikely they'll overhaul United.

Ask them a few weeks back or at the start of the season, or what they want as priority next season and almost to a man they'll say winning in the league.

[cmonurz]

I'd argue though that if you asked those same fans whether they wanted Benitez in charge next season, the majority would say yes.

[Harry Carry]

I'd argue though that if you asked those same fans whether they wanted Benitez in charge next season, the majority would say yes.

He'll quit when Torres and Gerrard want out in the summer.

[Hoop Blah]

Bizarrly I think you're probably right.

At times he seems to have lost their backing, but on the whole they do seem to love him.

I still can't see them winning the league with him in charge. He's cost them every year, first with his tinkering and dodgy buys, now with his destabalisation of the whole club and lack of goals leading to too many dropped points at a time that they should've stormed clear at the top of the league.

[cmonurz]

I'd argue though that if you asked those same fans whether they wanted Benitez in charge next season, the majority would say yes.

He'll quit when Torres and Gerrard want out in the summer.

I think it's the other way around actually, certainly in the case of Torres (and Alonso) who I think will go if Benitez leaves.

[cmonurz]

I still can't see them winning the league with him in charge. He's cost them every year, first with his tinkering and dodgy buys, now with his destabalisation of the whole club and lack of goals leading to too many dropped points at a time that they should've stormed clear at the top of the league.

Agreed re his tinkering in previous seasons, but this time around I think the players have left Benitez down. Ultimately Rafa has picked his best side, in its best formation; he can only do so much but if the players can't find a way past Stoke's defence or Fulham's, or West Ham's, at home, then they don't deserve to win the league.

What Liverpool have also achieved this season is points and goals when Torres and/or Gerrard have been absent.

One defeat in the league all season speaks volumes - it's an if I know, but if Liverpool had won those home games against Fulham, West Ham and Stoke (and you'd back them to if they played tomorrow) then there would be a point in it. Liverpool have definitely moved forward in the league this season, and I think dismissing their league performance also does a discredit to United who have managed to step it up another level this season in their extraordinary defensive run.

[Hoop Blah]

But if your best XI involves playing 4-5-1 with two holding midfielders (both very good, and in Alonso's case a great passer of the ball) and Kuyt providing creativity on one side then you're not going to breakdown organised Premiership defences.

Especially when you rely so heavily on Gerrard and Torres and both are injured for significant periods.

I genuinely think they have the basis of a squad ready to win the league but they're far too workmanlike and defensive at home against sides who they'd expect to turn over.

The only one to blame for that is the man who picks the team and sends them out to play like it every week.

[cmonurz]

I'd just question whether taking Liverpool closer to the title, including improving away from home, and getting results against their closest rivals (which they haven't done in recent seasons) is really grounds for sacking.

Yes, they need to open up at home, but we are talking small margins here. It has hardly been a distastrous season for Liverpool.

[Hoop Blah]

It's still been what 5 years and he's not gotten to the stage where they've seriously been challenging for the title in the last month of the season.

That's the standards they set at Liverpool and he's not delivering.

He's by no means been a failure, delivering the European success that he has ensures that he's going to be remembered in a good light, but ulitmately they need to be winning the league.

Thats how I see it anyway.