Coppell v Silkman re: Foreigners in the English Leagues

[Forbury Lion]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion ... 73385.html


Interesting article, nothing we've not heard before.

My proposed solution - Have the English FA distribute cash at the end of the season based on the number of minutes English players have featured over the course of a season. It can collect the cash at the start of the season by means of a memberships fee.

[Royalee]

I wrote a piece on this not long ago - I think to limit players would be wrong as it could encourage Premiership clubs to stockpile domestic players and I think the main problem is in the way we coach our players and the restrictions placed upon our academies. There is a 90-minute ruling which says that clubs should not be able to take on domestic players which live further than a '90-minute commute' from their training base. Sir Alex Ferguson ridiculed this ruling along with Wenger as it 'prevents players from having the opportunity to train at a club Manchester United' and denies them of their right to do so if they're good enough at a young age. We certainly don't help ourselves in this country IMO and use foreign players as an excuse as to why we aren't taking the right approach to develop our talent.

My two pennies worth is here http://royaleeblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/premier-league-home-grown-playersquad.html , FWIW I think the solution lies within improving academies and Coppell has a point in that we're recruiting too many youngsters from abroad - our academies should be used for developing domestic talent.

[zummerset]

yes but who cares what you think RL??? A serious q?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I actually agree that a lot of it is down to poor coaching. We still seem to have this attitude that we somehow know best and we've got nothing to learn from foreigners when it comes to coaching. The fact is other nations just seem to be better than us at producing players with the basic skill of controlling a ball, and if you can't do that fundamental task adequately, you'll never be anything except a limited player.

Next week we may well field a team with four players from Iceland. Iceland's population is about the same as the population of Reading. Can you imagine ever fielding four players from Reading in the Reading first team?

[Ian Royal]

... but I tell you in five years Sky Television won't be covering football and players will be earning £3,000 per week.

Personally I don't see that as a downside in the slightest.

[Barry the bird boggler]

... but I tell you in five years Sky Television won't be covering football and players will be earning £3,000 per week.

Personally I don't see that as a downside in the slightest.

Neither do I the sooner SKY get lost the better for this country as the foreign talent wouldn't come here then just like it didn't in the 60s, 70s and 80s - and we still mostly had the best European club sides going.

It would also cause the gaps between the leagues to get smaller and more competitive as currently this country is in desperate need of a Premier League 2 to help things out.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

... but I tell you in five years Sky Television won't be covering football and players will be earning £3,000 per week.

Personally I don't see that as a downside in the slightest.

Neither do I the sooner SKY get lost the better for this country as the foreign talent wouldn't come here then just like it didn't in the 60s, 70s and 80s - and we still mostly had the best European club sides going.

back then the foreign sides didn't sign that many overseas players either, and we still relied remarkably heavily on players from the rest of the British Isles (which pissed off UEFA no end - "ah, I see you claim the home nations are four countries, but at the same time claim they are the same country when it comes to player nationality in club football in european competitions")


Overall it could be interesting. Comparitive weakening of the leagues hasn't done Germany or Holland any harm, but how many fans in this country would like it?

and as always, fans complain about not enough englishmen playing in our leagues, but how many here think it's terrible that only three English players started for Reading on Saturday?

[papereyes]

I actually agree that a lot of it is down to poor coaching. We still seem to have this attitude that we somehow know best and we've got nothing to learn from foreigners when it comes to coaching. The fact is other nations just seem to be better than us at producing players with the basic skill of controlling a ball, and if you can't do that fundamental task adequately, you'll never be anything except a limited player.

Next week we may well field a team with four players from Iceland. Iceland's population is about the same as the population of Reading. Can you imagine ever fielding four players from Reading in the Reading first team?

Wrt coaching - at 15-16, we tend to select for pace, height and speed. A small player who is decent on the ball gets very little chance unless he's absolutely amazing. The players that could still develop don't get the chance to.

.. back then the foreign sides didn't sign that many overseas players either ...

The top Italian and Spanish sides have always brought in 'overseas' players ... ? Its just that they could easily bring in a South American and he'd settle and know the game and British clubs tended to rely on British players.

And in terms of comparitive weakening of leagues - Bundesliga is by far and away the best league in Europe for everything that most fans seem to care about.
I'd happily take safe standing areas, clubs living within their means, beer on the terraces and a greater sense of clubs playing for the fans that what we've got here.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

And in terms of comparitive weakening of leagues - Bundesliga is by far and away the best league in Europe for everything that most fans seem to care about.
I'd happily take safe standing areas, clubs living within their means, beer on the terraces and a greater sense of clubs playing for the fans that what we've got here.

...best supported too, although there's sadly no reason to think a reduction in foreign players would lead to lower prices, terracing, beer being allowed in the ground or higher crowds here.

[Dirk Gently]

And in terms of comparitive weakening of leagues - Bundesliga is by far and away the best league in Europe for everything that most fans seem to care about.
I'd happily take safe standing areas, clubs living within their means, beer on the terraces and a greater sense of clubs playing for the fans that what we've got here.

...best supported too, although there's sadly no reason to think a reduction in foreign players would lead to lower prices, terracing, beer being allowed in the ground or higher crowds here.

The two go hand in hand, although they're not causal. Apart from being supporter owned, German clubs don't have the ever-increasing (so far!) TV money that English clubs have, so they've been forced to look after their customers. Here, where it's all about TV money, the customers are the ones on the sofa and in the pubs, not in the grounds.

[papereyes]

IIRC, they did have and it went tits up around 2000-2002 so they've all had to take a step back and work out how to make their businesses run properly.

I also always thought that the majority of the TV money came not from the UK market but from world wide sales of Premiership football.

Also - German league does have many decent foreign players within it. Just not the Very Best. They're all in Spain at the moment.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

...best supported too, although there's sadly no reason to think a reduction in foreign players would lead to lower prices, terracing, beer being allowed in the ground or higher crowds here.

The two go hand in hand, although they're not causal. Apart from being supporter owned, German clubs don't have the ever-increasing (so far!) TV money that English clubs have, so they've been forced to look after their customers. Here, where it's all about TV money, the customers are the ones on the sofa and in the pubs, not in the grounds.

terracing and beer in the stands is a political/legal issue. Do you really think that clubs want rules in place which effectively mean there are no beer sales while the game is in progess? Do you think clubs wanted to convert to all-seater stadiums, especially when now they've realised they can charge almost as much to stand as to sit?

And do you really believe that if the foreign players left, the English players would accept their salaries going down?

Clubs would still charge as much as they think they can get away with, like they pretty much always have.

[Dirk Gently]

...best supported too, although there's sadly no reason to think a reduction in foreign players would lead to lower prices, terracing, beer being allowed in the ground or higher crowds here.

The two go hand in hand, although they're not causal. Apart from being supporter owned, German clubs don't have the ever-increasing (so far!) TV money that English clubs have, so they've been forced to look after their customers. Here, where it's all about TV money, the customers are the ones on the sofa and in the pubs, not in the grounds.

terracing and beer in the stands is a political/legal issue. Do you really think that clubs want rules in place which effectively mean there are no beer sales while the game is in progess? Do you think clubs wanted to convert to all-seater stadiums, especially when now they've realised they can charge almost as much to stand as to sit?

And do you really believe that if the foreign players left, the English players would accept their salaries going down?

Clubs would still charge as much as they think they can get away with, like they pretty much always have.

Yes, to a certain extent - clubs were quite happy in the early 90s to ban beer sales and to go all seater, because there were economic arguments from both (or that's what they say, anyway).

Because of the long-standing link between alcohol and hooliganism they say they that banning beer sales saved them money on policing and stewarding and also let them be more attractive to a more affluent audience. The same applies with going all-seater - this helped to reposition the game for that more affluent audience - and don't forget they mostly got grants to assist in the conversion.

I agree that standing and beer sales are legal/political issues, but I also have no doubts that those in charge at the top clubs (i.e. the ones who are listened to!) are quite happy with the status quo as it is now - they could lobby for change and politicos would take notice of them, but they see an economic interest in leaving things as they are.

But the point I was making was that in Germany the proportion of income that comes from gate receipts is much higher than in the UK, because the TV revenue there is so much lower. And so the clubs there listen to supporters more because they are economically much more significant than here. Clubs charge less because of supply and demand, and cater for a larger-cross section of society, because they see all age groups and social sectors as being customer, rather than seeing young/less affluent as "not the ones we want." (Ray Booth "For every hooligan I ban I attract a family of four.")

As to salaries going down, no players would accept it, but they might have to if income was reduced - and, of course, the better ones would off and up to somewhere that paid better.

[TheMaraudingDog]

The two go hand in hand, although they're not causal. Apart from being supporter owned, German clubs don't have the ever-increasing (so far!) TV money that English clubs have, so they've been forced to look after their customers. Here, where it's all about TV money, the customers are the ones on the sofa and in the pubs, not in the grounds.

According to David Conn...

However, by far the largest proportion of United's record £257m turnover was still earned in the UK in 2007-08, and the largest proportion, £101.5m, came from match days at Old Trafford.

[Dirk Gently]

But that's still under 40% and that includes UK merchandising - and it's for the team with the highest capacity in the UK.

In Germany, in-ground gate money accounts for well over 50% of club income and usually closer to 60%. .

[Mr Optimist]

Yes and no!! It still means only slightly less than 40% of Manchester United's turnover comes from matchday revenue....what percentage of RFC's turnover now back in the Chumpionship comes from matchday revenue? At a guess I am sure it would be a much higher percentage than 40%.

Not saying that Manchester United are vastly different from any one other Prem League club thanks to Sky revenue.

[Dirk Gently]

Yes and no!! It still means only slightly less than 40% of Manchester United's turnover comes from matchday revenue....what percentage of RFC's turnover now back in the Chumpionship comes from matchday revenue? At a guess I am sure it would be a much higher percentage than 40%.

Not saying that Manchester United are vastly different from any one other Prem League club thanks to Sky revenue.

Absolutely - because the TV income in the CCC is much less than in the PL, the matchday revenue is far more significant.

Don't forget that the Man Utd 40% figure includes merchandising, though - all the kids in replica tops and all the sales of shirts, posters and other tat to Chinese tourists at the OT Megastore. We're not just talking about tickets here.

[TheMaraudingDog]

You say that clubs in Germany charge less because of supply and demand and that they 'look after' fans. Why is it that like in England it's only the big clubs that sell out?

[Ian Royal]

Because clubs that aren't big have set ups with room for growth?

[TheMaraudingDog]

Because clubs that aren't big have set ups with room for growth?

Or is it because, like in English football people are only interested in the big clubs and you can paint as many nice pictures as you wish the fact remains that outside the top flight English clubs get better crowds in that German ones do.

I'd imaging though if Anfield, The Bridge, White Hart Lane etc were bigger than Engligh top flight attendances would rival the German ones.

I do agree that the Germans have by far the better set up but lets not fall for these FFS conspiracy theories.