Next England Captain?

[TBM]

I agree, and I do think a captain has an important role within the squad, but I think the Sven/Beckham/Media powerful era has blown it all out of proportion.

I agree that the captain should be liked and respected amongst his team too, and as I said, Beckham probably was and his sheer presence which set him apart in many ways.

I agree he was a good captain, because he would lead by example and was a good role model most of the time, and one of out better players. I just think he was also very lucky to be in the side at times (often to the detriment of the side because of his image and position as captain) and very lucky (and well advised/pushed by his wife) to be captain at a time when celebrity and the media were so powerful.

Good but not great I'd say.

Cant argue with that.........at least you explain your point unlike BR2

[BR2]

TBM,
You are obviously from the era besotted with celebrity and seem also to think that the captain's role is important in football.
The Italians (who have won the World Cup many more times than we have)pick the most experienced player as captain and see that role as just somebody to toss a coin.
We (and you in particular) see it as so much more.
Perhaps one of the reasons why we don't win World Cups is this fixation with captaincy-the nonsense that players have to turn to a leader in difficult times.

The renowned and much respected Steve Coppell (remember him?) was very much of the opinion that players solve their own problems during a game and shouldn't be looking to others to bail them out.
It is probably all part of our nanny state and a much bigger topic but this quest for a leader which we do in all sport is an archaic approach and is a cop- out for individuals.
It's Blair's fault or Brown's fault or the captain didn't lead us and personal responsibility has gone out of the window.
Have a look at Life of Brian which satirised this view that we must have a leader.

Leaders in football should be all over the pitch and not just with one man.
IMHO John Terry will remain one of those leaders whether or not he is called the captain and I would suggest that without him our World Cup chances would diminish.
As for the other players respecting him I suspect that they are all having a good laugh especially Cashley and Fat Frank and if there was a person that you wanted in the trenches with you I reckon most of the players would pick John Terry.

BTW TBM aren't Beckham and Rooney two of the very rare English players to be sent off at World Cup finals?
If you are talking of role models surely you can't include those two nasty pieces of work and we don't want our youngsters copying petulant players kicking out at others behind the ref's back.
It's hard enough playing with 11 men but a damn sight harder with just 10.

[Seal]

Who would you like to replace the adulterer Terry? How about Rooney who shags grannny prostitutes? Or Gerrard who gets into fights with DJ? Or that lovely moral chap Ashley Cole?

If there was one of them who was a role model then teh argument might hold some water, but they're all as bad as each other in one way or another.

Surprised you went for this angle to be honest. Misses to point to me. This is very different from all those examples above: it involves a fellow England team mate, which is not something you can say about the misdemeanours of any of these other candidates.

Capello will not make this decision based on their status as role models to the public. He will make it based on a pure footballing decision. If he feels that in any way Terry remaining captain will be detrimental to team moral (ergo performance), Terry will be gone.

Personally I feel he will relinquish Terry of the Captaincy, but that Terry will start for England in the World Cup. I think he'll go for Rooney as Captain: guaranteed starter, in the form of his life, seems to relish extra responsibility, respected by everyone & has matured greatly.

[BR2]

Who would you like to replace the adulterer Terry? How about Rooney who shags grannny prostitutes? Or Gerrard who gets into fights with DJ? Or that lovely moral chap Ashley Cole?

If there was one of them who was a role model then teh argument might hold some water, but they're all as bad as each other in one way or another.

Surprised you went for this angle to be honest. Misses to point to me. This is very different from all those examples above: it involves a fellow England team mate, which is not something you can say about the misdemeanours of any of these other candidates.

Capello will not make this decision based on their status as role models to the public. He will make it based on a pure footballing decision. If he feels that in any way Terry remaining captain will be detrimental to team moral (ergo performance), Terry will be gone.

Personally I feel he will relinquish Terry of the Captaincy, but that Terry will start for England in the World Cup. I think he'll go for Rooney as Captain: guaranteed starter, in the form of his life, seems to relish extra responsibility, respected by everyone & has matured greatly.

That's the same Rooney who is forever being shown in matches telling the ref to f*** off and gets sent off for kicking somebody off the ball at the crucial stage of a World Cup final.
IMHO Terry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rooney.

[Thaumagurist*]

.

[Deadlock]

That's the same Rooney who ... gets sent off for kicking somebody off the ball at the crucial stage of a World Cup final.

Could I point out that Rooney was fouled from behind by Carvalho that prompted him to do the stamp?

That just proves Rooney's stupidity at the time. Referees take a very dim view of retaliation, as every player knows.

[BR2]

That's the same Rooney who ... gets sent off for kicking somebody off the ball at the crucial stage of a World Cup final.

Could I point out that Rooney was fouled from behind by Carvalho that prompted him to do the stamp?

And it wasn't in the World Cup Final. We were eliminated a long time before that stage. (Quarter finals?)

Well done Spacey,missing the point as usual-responsible England players shouldn't go around stamping on or kicking other players.
That,in my mind,means that you have reacted for yourself rather than for the team.

[Seal]

Who would you like to replace the adulterer Terry? How about Rooney who shags grannny prostitutes? Or Gerrard who gets into fights with DJ? Or that lovely moral chap Ashley Cole?

If there was one of them who was a role model then teh argument might hold some water, but they're all as bad as each other in one way or another.

Surprised you went for this angle to be honest. Misses to point to me. This is very different from all those examples above: it involves a fellow England team mate, which is not something you can say about the misdemeanours of any of these other candidates.

Capello will not make this decision based on their status as role models to the public. He will make it based on a pure footballing decision. If he feels that in any way Terry remaining captain will be detrimental to team moral (ergo performance), Terry will be gone.

Personally I feel he will relinquish Terry of the Captaincy, but that Terry will start for England in the World Cup. I think he'll go for Rooney as Captain: guaranteed starter, in the form of his life, seems to relish extra responsibility, respected by everyone & has matured greatly.

That's the same Rooney who is forever being shown in matches telling the ref to f*** off and gets sent off for kicking somebody off the ball at the crucial stage of a World Cup final.
IMHO Terry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rooney.

Erm. That was 4 years ago. He was 20 years old at the time. Please see my point re: having matured greatly since then. Next?

I agree the swearing is unnecessary, but if you re-read my post you'll see that I am looking for a captain who is a leader of men on a football pitch, not a role model for society (I'd rather teachers, doctors, serviceman and just occasionally politicians were who we looked to for role models thank you very much).

[BR2]

Seal and TBM you seem stuck with the idea that a "leader" is important.

What has Rooney done for Man Utd recently?
He has been banging in the goals operating in a free and uncontrolled role.
That suits his game best and in fact Fergie made Evra captain on Sunday and the pundits suggested that although Rooney had captained the side at some stage the lack of responsibility helped him to get on with what he does best.
I'm not sure why you think that Rooney is not the same animal as 4 years ago and somehow has matured into a different creature.
I still see him as the same mouthy,indisciplined player that he always has been but one who performs best when less restrictions are placed on him.
Maybe you can explain just how he would "lead" experienced players like Lampard,Gerrard and Ferdinand and somehow get them playing to their best level.

As I said earlier the whole thing about captaincy is some kind of English inferiority complex where players are supposedly meant to look up to some saviour to solve all of their problems as they are not prepared to accept personal responsibility.
The Chris Hoys,Nick Faldos and Steve Regraves excelled without a captain to look over them and I would suggest that the same applies to team sports-people are either winners or they are not and the constant failure in many English sports is down to having non-winners (who are not mentally tough enough and often care more about image and celebrity) rather than having the right captain.

Just out of interest are you both under 30?

[TBM]

TBM,
You are obviously from the era besotted with celebrity and seem also to think that the captain's role is important in football.
The Italians (who have won the World Cup many more times than we have)pick the most experienced player as captain and see that role as just somebody to toss a coin.
We (and you in particular) see it as so much more.
Perhaps one of the reasons why we don't win World Cups is this fixation with captaincy-the nonsense that players have to turn to a leader in difficult times.

The renowned and much respected Steve Coppell (remember him?) was very much of the opinion that players solve their own problems during a game and shouldn't be looking to others to bail them out.
It is probably all part of our nanny state and a much bigger topic but this quest for a leader which we do in all sport is an archaic approach and is a cop- out for individuals.
It's Blair's fault or Brown's fault or the captain didn't lead us and personal responsibility has gone out of the window.
Have a look at Life of Brian which satirised this view that we must have a leader.

Leaders in football should be all over the pitch and not just with one man.
IMHO John Terry will remain one of those leaders whether or not he is called the captain and I would suggest that without him our World Cup chances would diminish.
As for the other players respecting him I suspect that they are all having a good laugh especially Cashley and Fat Frank and if there was a person that you wanted in the trenches with you I reckon most of the players would pick John Terry.

BTW TBM aren't Beckham and Rooney two of the very rare English players to be sent off at World Cup finals?
If you are talking of role models surely you can't include those two nasty pieces of work and we don't want our youngsters copying petulant players kicking out at others behind the ref's back.
It's hard enough playing with 11 men but a damn sight harder with just 10.

Ok where do i start with this.....

The Italians (who have won the World Cup many more times than we have)pick the most experienced player as captain and see that role as just somebody to toss a coin.

Beckham 115 caps more than any other (current) player

The renowned and much respected Steve Coppell (remember him?) was very much of the opinion that players solve their own problems during a game and shouldn't be looking to others to bail them out.

So whats the problem with Beckham being captain then? - if, as you say, he doesn't have to do anything on the pitch (bar the toss) then its only good to have a role model off it

As for the other players respecting him I suspect that they are all having a good laugh especially Cashley and Fat Frank and if there was a person that you wanted in the trenches with you I reckon most of the players would pick John Terry.

I think you'll find he's lost a lot of respect from fellow team-mates who are also good friends with Wayne Bridge, i've seen lots of support for Bridge but hardly any for Terry

If you are talking of role models surely you can't include those two nasty pieces of work and we don't want our youngsters copying petulant players kicking out at others behind the ref's back.

Very true but they didn't do it whilst they were captain and have both learnt from it

That's the same Rooney who is forever being shown in matches telling the ref to f*** off.
IMHO Terry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rooney.

The same Terry who is forever being shown in matches telling the ref to f*** off

You've given me no explanation as to why Beckham wasn't a good captain???.........i didn't see anyone speak up, in the media or involved in football, when he had the armband yet you question what planet i'm on and not those with far more knowledge and inside information than you and i put together???

[TBM]

Seal and TBM you seem stuck with the idea that a "leader" is important.

What has Rooney done for Man Utd recently?
He has been banging in the goals operating in a free and uncontrolled role.
That suits his game best and in fact Fergie made Evra captain on Sunday and the pundits suggested that although Rooney had captained the side at some stage the lack of responsibility helped him to get on with what he does best.
I'm not sure why you think that Rooney is not the same animal as 4 years ago and somehow has matured into a different creature.
I still see him as the same mouthy,indisciplined player that he always has been but one who performs best when less restrictions are placed on him.
Maybe you can explain just how he would "lead" experienced players like Lampard,Gerrard and Ferdinand and somehow get them playing to their best level.

As I said earlier the whole thing about captaincy is some kind of English inferiority complex where players are supposedly meant to look up to some saviour to solve all of their problems as they are not prepared to accept personal responsibility.
The Chris Hoys,Nick Faldos and Steve Regraves excelled without a captain to look over them and I would suggest that the same applies to team sports-people are either winners or they are not and the constant failure in many English sports is down to having non-winners (who are not mentally tough enough and often care more about image and celebrity) rather than having the right captain.

Just out of interest are you both under 30?

Seriously what the fcuk are you talking about???

My point about England captain has nothing to do with what they do ON THE PITCH as i've said plenty of times before (if you actually bothered to read the thread). Being England captain is something of a role model, a person with a certain aura about them to lift players confidence and moral, a person who young kids look up to, a person the media and fans like..........this is why i dont think John Terry is a good choice.

So before you start spouting your shit READ THE FCUKING THREAD!

[BR2]

Seal and TBM you seem stuck with the idea that a "leader" is important.

What has Rooney done for Man Utd recently?
He has been banging in the goals operating in a free and uncontrolled role.
That suits his game best and in fact Fergie made Evra captain on Sunday and the pundits suggested that although Rooney had captained the side at some stage the lack of responsibility helped him to get on with what he does best.
I'm not sure why you think that Rooney is not the same animal as 4 years ago and somehow has matured into a different creature.
I still see him as the same mouthy,indisciplined player that he always has been but one who performs best when less restrictions are placed on him.
Maybe you can explain just how he would "lead" experienced players like Lampard,Gerrard and Ferdinand and somehow get them playing to their best level.

As I said earlier the whole thing about captaincy is some kind of English inferiority complex where players are supposedly meant to look up to some saviour to solve all of their problems as they are not prepared to accept personal responsibility.
The Chris Hoys,Nick Faldos and Steve Regraves excelled without a captain to look over them and I would suggest that the same applies to team sports-people are either winners or they are not and the constant failure in many English sports is down to having non-winners (who are not mentally tough enough and often care more about image and celebrity) rather than having the right captain.

Just out of interest are you both under 30?

Seriously what the fcuk are you talking about???

My point about England captain has nothing to do with what they do ON THE PITCH as i've said plenty of times before (if you actually bothered to read the thread). Being England captain is something of a role model, a person with a certain aura about them to lift players confidence and moral, a person who young kids look up to, a person the media and fans like..........this is why i dont think John Terry is a good choice.

So before you start spouting your shit READ THE FCUKING THREAD!

TBM,
You may well be one of the young kids that you keep talking about who for some reason needs a role model.
We are totally at cross purposes-my view is that we don't need a captain whereas you seem to think that he needs to be the Good Lord himself.
If we are going to have a captain then let it be somebody that the other players get on with and Terry will get along with at least 2 others in Cole and Lampard.

I don't wish to discuss with you the whole area of Brand Beckham,The Wags,PR,The Media-I want to see our team focus on winning football matches and not be the media circus of the Sven/Beckham era.
It really isn't essential to our chances that the captain (if we have one)needs to be a king of spin-leave any media work to Fabio and the folk from the FA and if players are allowed to get on with the football we might actually win something.

[Mr Angry]

Anyone who thinks a captain on the pitch is unimportant at International level is living on a different planet!

Exhibit #1 - Beckham v. Greece in a WC 2002 qualifier; without his leadership ON the pitch England would have failed to qualify.

The captain of England does have a hell of a lot of responsibility on his shoulders both on the pitch, in the dressing room and off the pitch, and as it stands, JT may well have lost a degree of respect from his International team-mates because of him playing away with the gf of a team-mate.

I think his position is untenable.

Oh, and FWIW, TBM is not under 30.

HTH.

[TBM]

Anyone who thinks a captain on the pitch is unimportant at International level is living on a different planet!

Exhibit #1 - Beckham v. Greece in a WC 2002 qualifier; without his leadership ON the pitch England would have failed to qualify.

The captain of England does have a hell of a lot of responsibility on his shoulders both on the pitch, in the dressing room and off the pitch, and as it stands, JT may well have lost a degree of respect from his International team-mates because of him playing away with the gf of a team-mate.

I think his position is untenable.

Oh, and FWIW, TBM is not under 30.

HTH.

Thank you - it seems BR2 is the only person who thinks a captain is somebody who tosses a coin at the beginning of a match.

Have you ever actually played football BR2? - i dont mean a kick about on a Sunday morning, i'm on about at a decent level?

[Hoop Blah]

Anyone who thinks a captain on the pitch is unimportant at International level is living on a different planet!

Exhibit #1 - Beckham v. Greece in a WC 2002 qualifier; without his leadership ON the pitch England would have failed to qualify.

Don't agree.

Beckham played quite well that day, but if every player followed his example on that day we'd have got hammered. It's typical of the hype around him that his performance that day is so lauded because of the late goal.

If you watch that game he was pretty much everywhere on that pitch apart from where he should've been, in his slot on the right side of our midfield. Watch how many free kicks he had and wasted before he finally got one of his 'trademark' efforts to go in. The finale to that game was amazing theatre, but to say he dragged us there through his own performance as many often do is just wrong in my book.

In many ways I think it shows why he possibly wasn't the captain every makes out. In many ways he was playing for himself that day and not fulfilling his role in the team. Although that could be seen to taking control, personally I see it as getting in the way of the rest and not helping them perform, and so to the detriment of the team performance (which lets face it wasn't the greatest that day!).

[Victor Meldrew]

Anyone who thinks a captain on the pitch is unimportant at International level is living on a different planet!

Exhibit #1 - Beckham v. Greece in a WC 2002 qualifier; without his leadership ON the pitch England would have failed to qualify.

Don't agree.

Beckham played quite well that day, but if every player followed his example on that day we'd have got hammered. It's typical of the hype around him that his performance that day is so lauded because of the late goal.

If you watch that game he was pretty much everywhere on that pitch apart from where he should've been, in his slot on the right side of our midfield. Watch how many free kicks he had and wasted before he finally got one of his 'trademark' efforts to go in. The finale to that game was amazing theatre, but to say he dragged us there through his own performance as many often do is just wrong in my book.

In many ways I think it shows why he possibly wasn't the captain every makes out. In many ways he was playing for himself that day and not fulfilling his role in the team. Although that could be seen to taking control, personally I see it as getting in the way of the rest and not helping them perform, and so to the detriment of the team performance (which lets face it wasn't the greatest that day!).

Absolutely spot on HB.
Mr A I thought you were better than that-how many free-kicks as direct shots on goal and one finally deceives the keeper as an example of captaincy is just stupid.
Going back to TMB Beckham would have to be selected first to be made captain under Capello and that is most unlikely.

This idea of what the captain brings to the party especially in football really is so over-rated.
BTW TBM I do have just a little bit of an idea of what goes on in professional football.

[Victor Meldrew]

Anyone who thinks a captain on the pitch is unimportant at International level is living on a different planet!

Exhibit #1 - Beckham v. Greece in a WC 2002 qualifier; without his leadership ON the pitch England would have failed to qualify.

The captain of England does have a hell of a lot of responsibility on his shoulders both on the pitch, in the dressing room and off the pitch, and as it stands, JT may well have lost a degree of respect from his International team-mates because of him playing away with the gf of a team-mate.

I think his position is untenable.

Oh, and FWIW, TBM is not under 30.

HTH.

If the idiot Beckham had remained ON the pitch we might have won our first World Cup since 1966-irresponsible or what.
Some of you guys seem to believe that what they see in Roy of the Rovers is actually what goes on in real life.

[Victor Meldrew]

Anyone who thinks a captain on the pitch is unimportant at International level is living on a different planet!

Exhibit #1 - Beckham v. Greece in a WC 2002 qualifier; without his leadership ON the pitch England would have failed to qualify.

The captain of England does have a hell of a lot of responsibility on his shoulders both on the pitch, in the dressing room and off the pitch, and as it stands, JT may well have lost a degree of respect from his International team-mates because of him playing away with the gf of a team-mate.

I think his position is untenable.

Oh, and FWIW, TBM is not under 30.

HTH.

Mr A,
Just tell me what an International football captain does on the pitch?

[Seal]

For a man who doesn't think an international football captain does much on the pitch, you're certainly spending a lot of time on this thread...

[Victor Meldrew]

For a man who doesn't think an international football captain does much on the pitch, you're certainly spending a lot of time on this thread...

That's because like most threads they tend to digress and it's something I feel strongly about.
As for who will be the next captain I would suggest that it might be Steven Gerrard-not a role model off the pitch(are any of them?) but according to the European writers last season our best player.
I'm not saying that it is the right and proper decision but I do know that the other players respect him so it could well be him.