England vs Mexico

[Seal]

Agreed. I would expect a team something like this for Japan:-

Hart
G. Johnson
Terry
Dawson
A. Cole
Lennon
Lampard
Gerrard (or maybe Huddlestone / Parker)
A. Johnson
Rooney
Defoe

[LoyalRoyalFan]

No closing down in the first half. Watch us get away with that against Spain.

[Seal]

YAWN. I'm pretty sure we'd go in a bit harder in a World Cup semi final. When Gerrard says that in the 1st half of a FRIENDLY we weren't being aggressive enough, then you know the players were playing the game in third gear.

[FiNeRaIn]

Its not the case of " going in harder" its the consistent failure to keep the ball against continental and south american sides in whatever scenario. Our style is too direct and pacey and when they have the ball we struggle to keep momentum. In the prem its not the case because A) there are foreigners in those teams with better ball retentions ( and paul scholes for united) and B) the fact the opposition team you are playing attacks directly as well it makes our league very end-to-end.
Its not new, myself, many on here and pundits have been going on about it for ages. Our style doesn't work against top sides and we have to adapt. A lot of the european sides pack out the centre of the midfield and when england try and play through the middle we are countered because individually they keep the ball twice as good and we are running around like headless chickens. We'll be up against players like xavi,fabregas gilberto silva, mascherano, schiejder and van bommel,etc all of those i've seen this season dominate the centre midfields they are in just by hard work and ball retention, they are far less effective against wingers as they tend not to push out wide and leave the middle open. That's why I want wingers.

It doesn't stop there though, their back fours play the ball around ONE MILLION times better than ours. Our defenders will have a quick look, if no one is available its an incoming hoof to crouch or down one of the channels. This just isn't international quality. Mexico's fullbacks although weak defensively at times played the ball around and created space well enough. Leighton baines didn't do either but credit where its due to Glen, he played well and was a rare exception. When Adam johnson and lennon were on we stretched mexico, both tore their respective fullbacks to pieces on 1/2 occasions and I would really love to see a 4-4-2 with lampard and barry in the middle with those two on either flank, gerrard wasn't poor last night but he just doesn't fit a viable side IMO, at a push he could replace barry but lampard/gerrard combo has struggled in the past. England are an odd team with backup in the wrong places, rooney is our only world class striker and the rest wouldn't get in any top 10 sides.

Spain, Holland, Brazil and Argentina are considerably better than us. Germany are a similar team to us, but for some reason just have a better winning mentality, even when on the ropes they pull something out and generally keep composure and the ball better than we do. On paper I'd say we are a better side, however I just know they'll probably make it further than we will. France have been poor and need to pick things up considerably to be a thread, Portugal are probably in the same category as us, outsiders.

I can't see this side making it past the quarter finals, we don't have enough strength in depth and we are one of the most style confused teams around at times.

Capello has done a great job to get us there, but sadly we are nothing more than an aston villa in premiership terms.

[Compo's Hat]

The thing with Baines is it's him or Warnock that goes as back up to A.Cole so Baines is in the 23 for me.

[Hoop Blah]

The thing with Baines is it's him or Warnock that goes as back up to A.Cole so Baines is in the 23 for me.

If the pair of them are that bad, why bother taking either of them?

Why not just have a backup option of playing someone like Milner out there or switching to 3 centre backs (something it's been suggested Capello is thinking about) if Cole isn't available?

Personally I think Warnock is half decent, and Baines isn't too bad, but what's stronger, a back four with one of them in it, or a switch in formation?

[Seal]

To Finerain.

My point was in relation to a comment re: closing down, which is nothing to do with our ball retention. In the first half we sat too deep, and were too passive, and as a result didn't get on the ball. My point was that in a more competitive game, we will press higher up the pitch, go in harder and win more tackles.

I am also intrigued to know that how you think us playing 2 wingers against Xavi & Ineista would EVER lead us to even having the ball to do anything with it. Your logic just doesn't make sense. "They are far less effective against wingers as they tend not to push out wide" Surely that means that they ARE more effective against wingers, they just work the ball through the middle. Surely inter proved the only way to deal with them is to pack centre midfield and try and get 3 on 2 scenarios? A 4-4-2 with 2 out and out wingers would just get murdered.

Moving on to ball retention. It is not a ground breaking insight to discover that some other international teams are better at keeping the ball than us. Fine, we're not Spain or Brazil, but we have other strengths that we should play to, namely fast counter attacking football around a nucleus of technically gifted players (Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard), and strength at set pieces. If we try and play the Latin teams at their own game we will lose.

For what it's worth I think we're pretty close when it comes to ideal formation. I really think Barry is key for us, he allows the midfield to be balanced, and against the better teams I just don't think we'd get away with 2 up front. Therefore I see a solution whereby we get the width you crave, yet still have the extra man in midfield (and really on Rooney to perform the role he has done for much of the season for United). Therefore:-

James
G. Johnson Terry Ferdinand A. Cole
Lennon Barry Lampard A. Johnson (or Milner)
Gerrard
Rooney

[FiNeRaIn]

I am also intrigued to know that how you think us playing 2 wingers against Xavi & Ineista would EVER lead us to even having the ball to do anything with it. Your logic just doesn't make sense. "They are far less effective against wingers as they tend not to push out wide" Surely that means that they ARE more effective against wingers, they just work the ball through the middle. Surely inter proved the only way to deal with them is to pack centre midfield and try and get 3 on 2 scenarios? A 4-4-2 with 2 out and out wingers would just get murdered.

What you've said doesn't make sense here I am talking when we get the ball, we attack down the flanks and not through the centre. Centre midfielders are at home in the centre, this is where they are most effective. If their's are better than yours, playing through the centre doesn't work as well as they are likely to dominate the centre of the park, hence pushing it out to quick wingers who can take on the fullbacks draws the opposing team out of position and you are likely to have more of an attacking threat. Quite why you don't understand this i'm not sure. As we proved with your ideal formation against spain last time we played, we were murdered and we were beaten by brazil also, so having slow players on the flanks doesn't work.

Moving on to ball retention. It is not a ground breaking insight to discover that some other international teams are better at keeping the ball than us. Fine, we're not Spain or Brazil, but we have other strengths that we should play to, namely fast counter attacking football around a nucleus of technically gifted players (Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard), and strength at set pieces. If we try and play the Latin teams at their own game we will lose.

I'll give you the set pieces there, but those " technically gifted players" are a lot less technically gifted than their counterparts. Also, attacking quickly through the centre as we attempted to at times last night is largely infective, even rooney was pushing out wide to get the ball in the channels. When lennon and johnson were on, we had more shape.

Bizarrely I would agree with your team, you've picked two quick wingers so what are you arguing about?

[Compo's Hat]

The thing with Baines is it's him or Warnock that goes as back up to A.Cole so Baines is in the 23 for me.

If the pair of them are that bad, why bother taking either of them?

Why not just have a backup option of playing someone like Milner out there or switching to 3 centre backs (something it's been suggested Capello is thinking about) if Cole isn't available?

Personally I think Warnock is half decent, and Baines isn't too bad, but what's stronger, a back four with one of them in it, or a switch in formation?

If Barry doesn't make it then it looks like Milner could be in the middle of midfield.

You need width at this level and a natural left footed played goes for me any day of the week regardless of formation.

[Seal]

I am also intrigued to know that how you think us playing 2 wingers against Xavi & Ineista would EVER lead us to even having the ball to do anything with it. Your logic just doesn't make sense. "They are far less effective against wingers as they tend not to push out wide" Surely that means that they ARE more effective against wingers, they just work the ball through the middle. Surely inter proved the only way to deal with them is to pack centre midfield and try and get 3 on 2 scenarios? A 4-4-2 with 2 out and out wingers would just get murdered.

What you've said doesn't make sense here I am talking when we get the ball, we attack down the flanks and not through the centre. Centre midfielders are at home in the centre, this is where they are most effective. If their's are better than yours, playing through the centre doesn't work as well as they are likely to dominate the centre of the park, hence pushing it out to quick wingers who can take on the fullbacks draws the opposing team out of position and you are likely to have more of an attacking threat. Quite why you don't understand this i'm not sure. As we proved with your ideal formation against spain last time we played, we were murdered and we were beaten by brazil also, so having slow players on the flanks doesn't work.

Moving on to ball retention. It is not a ground breaking insight to discover that some other international teams are better at keeping the ball than us. Fine, we're not Spain or Brazil, but we have other strengths that we should play to, namely fast counter attacking football around a nucleus of technically gifted players (Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard), and strength at set pieces. If we try and play the Latin teams at their own game we will lose.

I'll give you the set pieces there, but those " technically gifted players" are a lot less technically gifted than their counterparts. Also, attacking quickly through the centre as we attempted to at times last night is largely infective, even rooney was pushing out wide to get the ball in the channels. When lennon and johnson were on, we had more shape.

Bizarrely I would agree with your team, you've picked two quick wingers so what are you arguing about?

I didn't understand your logic re: wingers alone being the solution to countering the Spains and Brazils of this world, but as you say, in a roundabout way we've got the the same place!

Yes I would definitely play quick wingers, but I do think that if we're going to do that then we'd have to sacrifice Crouch or Heskey and play a fifth midfielder in behind Rooney. The obvious candidate being Gerrard, and it seems that is Capello's thinking too if the observations I have heard from the training camp are proved to be accurate.

I wouldn't be too surprised if that formation is reserved until we come up against the stronger sides who retain the ball better than us. In the group stages I can see us more often that not playing 2 up front, saving the alternate formation for the knockout stages and not giving the opposition a chance to study it in advance.

Having said that a couple more injuries and all such plans are out the window.

[Adz1871]

Switzerland 1-1 Italy
Ukraine 0-0 Italy

These were Italy's pre world cup friendlies 4 years ago. Not very convincing is it?
But they finished as World champions.

Anything is possible. So be optimistic!

[Ian Royal]

True but there is no way we will start a game at the WC with a starting XI of:

Green, Johnson, Ferdinand, King, Baines, Walcott, Milner, Carrick, Gerrard, Crouch, Rooney

So as a fixture it was fairly pointless.

King completes 90 minutes, Green makes a few top drawer saves, Milner impresses again in an England shirt, Rooney plays 90 mins, both Johnsons and Lennon impress - not quite as pointless as some would believe.

We knoe King can play 90 mins - problem is can he play 90mins 4 or 5 times in a few weeks.

Keeper makes decent saves isn't really learning anything.

Milner is already going so not sure we learn anything new there - he may force his way into the 11.

I'll give you it's good that Rooney got 90mins and Johnson impressed.

On that showing I'd say it's important we don't let King play 90 minutes. He was all over the place.

Same old England, same old problem. Lots of good players no real balance or actual team.

[Seal]

But is Wayne Rooney still overrated Ian?

[Ian Royal]

But is Wayne Rooney still overrated Ian?

Yes I think so. Although there's no doubt he's our best striker by a fair distance.

[comeonyouroyals]

Why not just play the same way Man U do to get the best out or Rooney and several other players. Compact in defence and very quick and powerful on the counter attack. Would suit Rooney, Lamps and Stevie as all play similar styles with their clubs, and those 3players are who we need to get the most out off.

[Ian Royal]

Why not just play the same way Man U do to get the best out or Rooney and several other players. Compact in defence and very quick and powerful on the counter attack. Would suit Rooney, Lamps and Stevie as all play similar styles with their clubs, and those 3players are who we need to get the most out off.

Because we don't have good enough wingers and Gerrard & Lampard can't both play in the middle, certainly not consistently well.

[Compo's Hat]

Holland beat the Mexicans 2-1 last night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NQ7d8mVZu0

Worth watching just for Van Persie's 2nd goal!

[leww_rfc]

what a ball!