Stuart Attwell

[Man Friday]

Way out of his depth...as he proves every couple of months. Can't wait for the next one. He seems to see things that no one in the whole ground sees. What's he gonna do next time? Require a penalty to be re-taken because someone in the crowd sneezes as it's about to be taken? Award a goal when the ball goes 2 foot wide? Oh, he'd done that one. Deny a couple of clear penalties as a compensatory measure? Oh, he's done that one as well. (Yes, I was there and the incidents were down our end - 2nd half. Eventually awarded the 3rd clear penalty.)

And by the way, the free-kick was "taken" about 2 yards further back. The incident took place another 7 or 8 yards (which is why the defender was rolling it back - in line with the referee's instruction).

One word: Incompetent.

[Stranded]

I don't think the other defenders were watching as they were also heading up pitch for the expected freekick.

If the ball wasn't already in the correct spot and the ref had already told them that it was then it would be a different story when he kicked it, as is, Turner took a free kick - he clearly wasn't thinking but 99/100 the striker wouldn't have gone for it, in this case he did.

There often seems to be a rush to back up the players in these situations when it was in fact their cock up, not the ref/linos.

[Stranded]

Way out of his depth...as he proves every couple of months. Can't wait for the next one. He seems to see things that no one in the whole ground sees. What's he gonna do next time? Require a penalty to be re-taken because someone in the crowd sneezes as it's about to be taken? Award a goal when the ball goes 2 foot wide? Oh, he'd done that one. Deny a couple of clear penalties as a compensatory measure? Oh, he's done that one as well. (Yes, I was there and the incidents were down our end - 2nd half. Eventually awarded the 3rd clear penalty.)

And by the way, the free-kick was "taken" about 2 yards further back. The incident took place another 7 or 8 yards (which is why the defender was rolling it back - in line with the referee's instruction).

One word: Incompetent.

I'm sorry MF but that is totally wrong - they showed the entire incident in depth on Goals on Sunday this morning and the free kick was taken in the exact spot where the foul was. The initial taking was forward of the spot hence why it was initially pulled back. The second time was spot on and clearly in line with his instruction.

[Chillitsphil]

Why isn't there more of a link between player's playing careers ending and a direct route for them into refereeing?

Agree that it may be a positive thing but it does usually take years to reach the top level so if that is what you are referring to then i think it would be almost impossible. Attwell is quite unusual in making it to the top in 10 years.

Making it to the football league usually takes longer than that and a player retiring at 35 doesn't have time on his side

I see your point - but I can't help but feel with more focussed training (perhaps for those interested as their playing career winds to a close) some players could quickly become capable of refereeing at the lower professional levels - and a few could then make it to the higher echelons. A player who has been in the game 12-15 years has got to have picked up a fair amount about refereeing in his time so I don't think it should take anywhere near as long as a young ref starting from scratch. Perhaps this could also result in a bit more respect for referees if they have played the game themselves to a high level and are known in the game. Major problem I can see is that former players will have friends in the game etc - but that shouldn't necessarily affect their impartiality.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Why isn't there more of a link between player's playing careers ending and a direct route for them into refereeing?

Agree that it may be a positive thing but it does usually take years to reach the top level so if that is what you are referring to then i think it would be almost impossible. Attwell is quite unusual in making it to the top in 10 years.

Making it to the football league usually takes longer than that and a player retiring at 35 doesn't have time on his side

I see your point - but I can't help but feel with more focussed training (perhaps for those interested as their playing career winds to a close) some players could quickly become capable of refereeing at the lower professional levels - and a few could then make it to the higher echelons. A player who has been in the game 12-15 years has got to have picked up a fair amount about refereeing in his time so I don't think it should take anywhere near as long as a young ref starting from scratch. Perhaps this could also result in a bit more respect for referees if they have played the game themselves to a high level and are known in the game. Major problem I can see is that former players will have friends in the game etc - but that shouldn't necessarily affect their impartiality.

Having heard a multitude of ex-pro experts on tv get the rules of the game wrong time and time again, I can't say I'm too confident playing the game at a high level helps.

[Chillitsphil]

Fair point

[Mr Angry]

Had the ref been Howard Webb rather than Stuart Atwell, the story would not have been about a referring mistake; Turner plays the ball - play has re-started. The fact that he screwed up seems to have by-passed Bruce, who only seems intent on blaming the ref.

Incidentally, wasn't it at Sunderland that Liverpool conceded the goal off the beach ball? What goes round, comes round.........

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Had the ref been Howard Webb rather than Stuart Atwell, the story would not have been about a referring mistake; Turner plays the ball - play has re-started. The fact that he screwed up seems to have by-passed Bruce, who only seems intent on blaming the ref..

Again, if it was a mis-kick, as you are implying, why was there no reaction other than bemusement from the Sunderland defenders? The guy who played the "pass" even carried on walking as Torres ran past him, with no reaction at all.

Clearly, none of them thought the free kick had been "taken".

[Hoop Blah]

Second (long-term) idea - any academy scholar who is offered a professional contract should be made to go on a referee's course. They should then be sent on their way with more of an understanding of the rules of the game rather than going into the professional game with only their own interpretation of the rules.

Like this very much. Write to the FA. It's not like there isn't the money in the game to afford it at all levels.

I've suggested this a few times in the past, with the added element of them actually having to ref some local football (kids and mens) to remind them how lucky they to be given a chance to get paid for something thousands do for fun.

Those that don't make it, or pick up serious injuries, at least have another string to their bow to maybe stay in the game.

[handbags_harris]

The major question people are failing to answer is the question of intent. Did Michael Turner backheel the ball in order to take the free kick, or did he backheel the ball in order to give the goalkeeper the ball in order for him to take the free kick? For a free kick to be "legal" there has to be an intention to take the kick, and I cannot believe that a Premier League defender, in his own half(?), would take a free kick with a backheel.

BTW, I haven't seen this yet, but my initial understanding of the incident and the major question that hasn't been answered make me think that Attwell and his linesman have ballsed up again.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

The major question people are failing to answer is the question of intent. Did Michael Turner backheel the ball in order to take the free kick, or did he backheel the ball in order to give the goalkeeper the ball in order for him to take the free kick?

Watch this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYtm2xAOEg0

Note the way that after tapping the ball back he sees Torres running towards him and then past him, and at no point is there any suggestion from his body language that he's doing anything other than strolling forward waiting for the keeper to take the kick. No defender, if he'd meant it as a backpass, would react like that.

For a free kick to be "legal" there has to be an intention to take the kick

That's the tricky point. I'm not sure there is any definition of a kick being a free kick or just being knocked to another player to take. A scan of the laws of the game finds nothing relating to it.

[Hoop Blah]

Serves him right for cheating then. The ref told him to take it from where it was so he shouldn't have been passing it back for the keeper anyway.

[handbags_harris]

The major question people are failing to answer is the question of intent. Did Michael Turner backheel the ball in order to take the free kick, or did he backheel the ball in order to give the goalkeeper the ball in order for him to take the free kick?

Watch this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYtm2xAOEg0

Note the way that after tapping the ball back he sees Torres running towards him and then past him, and at no point is there any suggestion from his body language that he's doing anything other than strolling forward waiting for the keeper to take the kick. No defender, if he'd meant it as a backpass, would react like that.

For a free kick to be "legal" there has to be an intention to take the kick

That's the tricky point. I'm not sure there is any definition of a kick being a free kick or just being knocked to another player to take. A scan of the laws of the game finds nothing relating to it.

I can't believe that hasn't been pulled back. Fernando Torres has got away with one there, and Stuart Attwell has let him get away with something completely outside the spirit of the game.

Second statement, I appreciate what you say and indeed nothing relates to it in the laws of the game, but when the ball is out of play there needs to be a deliberate restart. A backheel to the 'keeper to take a free kick is not a deliberate restart.

[soggy biscuit]

Why isn't there more of a link between player's playing careers ending and a direct route for them into refereeing?

Agree that it may be a positive thing but it does usually take years to reach the top level so if that is what you are referring to then i think it would be almost impossible. Attwell is quite unusual in making it to the top in 10 years.

Making it to the football league usually takes longer than that and a player retiring at 35 doesn't have time on his side

A player who has been in the game 12-15 years has got to have picked up a fair amount about refereeing in his time so I don't think it should take anywhere near as long as a young ref starting from scratch.

My point was more about the lack of promotion places available each season between the divisions and that some divisions you have to do 2 seasons in before promotion. Attwell's rise was incredibly quick and will rarely be done again, the authorities wanted to promote someone quickly from the football league at a young age to become their leading man.

As a side note, UEFA have started up a new scheme where x amount of promising young officials from major footballing countries go out to Switzerland for a couple of years to train up under them with a hope of improving all standards

[Royal Rother]

And by the way, the free-kick was "taken" about 2 yards further back. The incident took place another 7 or 8 yards (which is why the defender was rolling it back - in line with the referee's instruction).

One word: Incompetent.

Ermm, why are you commenting when you quite obviously haven't seen the incident?

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

And by the way, the free-kick was "taken" about 2 yards further back. The incident took place another 7 or 8 yards (which is why the defender was rolling it back - in line with the referee's instruction).

One word: Incompetent.

Ermm, why are you commenting when you quite obviously haven't seen the incident?

yet you have seen the incident and still believe it was a mis-kicked pass

[Royal Rother]

The major question people are failing to answer is the question of intent. Did Michael Turner backheel the ball in order to take the free kick, or did he backheel the ball in order to give the goalkeeper the ball in order for him to take the free kick?

Watch this clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYtm2xAOEg0

Note the way that after tapping the ball back he sees Torres running towards him and then past him, and at no point is there any suggestion from his body language that he's doing anything other than strolling forward waiting for the keeper to take the kick. No defender, if he'd meant it as a backpass, would react like that.

I tend to disagree. Ok, it all took only a few seconds but in that situation the very first thing a defender (anyone for that matter) would do is to turn around and see why the hell Torres was running past him full pelt. It would be a totally instinctive reaction unless in that moment an icy cold fear / guilty conscience had flooded his mind. In fact Turner hardly even turned around until Torres had reached the 'keeper.

Turner underhit his backpass, momentarily twitched as if to turn around and follow up, but didn't. I think he knew exactly what he had done but was trying to cover up his fcuk up in the belief the ref would call it back. You can't beat an instinctive reaction, but the brain can react very quickly when faced with a crisis.

Anyway, it's only an opinion as is mine that Atwell did nothing wrong. He had restarted play from the correct position and whatever he thought he was doing, Turner definitely fcuked up, not Atwell.

[Royal Rother]

And by the way, the free-kick was "taken" about 2 yards further back. The incident took place another 7 or 8 yards (which is why the defender was rolling it back - in line with the referee's instruction).

One word: Incompetent.

Ermm, why are you commenting when you quite obviously haven't seen the incident?

yet you have seen the incident and still believe it was a mis-kicked pass

That is an opinion, open to debate. But it is a fact that the free-kick was "taken" by Turner from the correct position, not 7 or 8 yards away from where the incident took place. Anyone who had seen the incident in full would surely know that.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I tend to disagree. Ok, it all took only a few seconds but in that situation the very first thing a defender (anyone for that matter) would do is to turn around and see why the hell Torres was running past him full pelt. It would be a totally instinctive reaction unless in that moment an icy cold fear / guilty conscience had flooded his mind. In fact Turner hardly even turned around until Torres had reached the 'keeper.

Turner underhit his backpass, momentarily twitched as if to turn around and follow up, but didn't. I think he knew exactly what he had done but was trying to cover up his fcuk up in the belief the ref would call it back. You can't beat an instinctive reaction, but the brain can react very quickly when faced with a crisis.

Anyway, it's only an opinion as is mine that Atwell did nothing wrong. He had restarted play from the correct position and whatever he thought he was doing, Turner definitely fcuked up, not Atwell.

I can only suggest you watch the clip again. You make it sound like Torres was past him before he knew it. In reality he kicked, turned and saw Torres, and continued walking forward as Torres went past him, without the slightest reaction. He doesn't even stop walking forward as Torres goes past.

There's no way in the world a defender who'd played a backpass would be so totally unconcerned about an attacker running past him.

There's also no way that someone attempting to backpass 30 yards would tap the ball like that, or not care in the slightest that he'd miskicked it.

[handbags_harris]

Anyway, it's only an opinion as is mine that Atwell did nothing wrong. He had restarted play from the correct position and whatever he thought he was doing, Turner definitely fcuked up, not Atwell.

And that is where your argument falls down. It is not up to Attwell to restart play, that is the job of the nominated player taking the free kick. The referee can only signal that he is ready for play to restart, in this case I assume by the use of his whistle. Play is then restarted with a kick awarded for an infringement, therefore giving the offended team a clear advantage. It is blatantly obvious that Turner wasn't taking the free kick, and was instead giving the ball back to his 'keeper, and regardless of whether Attwell had signalled that he was ready for play to restart he should have allowed Sunderland to "retake" the free kick.