Relegation form?

[Snowball]

I spoke of the 'distribution', not solely of conceding three goals. Try again.

I also asked you what you found interesting about it. Try again.

Maybe you should be a little bit more specific. I would argue that our results do NOT
reflect the distribution of the top teams since almost all of them have `NOT conceded
three goals more than once.

And why is it "interesting"? Because it's discontinuous. We seem watertight and then suddenly quite poor
If we were slipping 1-2-1-2-1-2 with the occasional 1, I'd get it.

Most clubs are more even tho Norwich are totally whacky with six clean sheets and 4 times letting in 3

[cmonurz]

Again, have to question your stats knowledge when I talk about a distribution, and twice now you focus on one aspect of that distribution, and the smallest aspect of it at that.

[Snowball]

Again, have to question your stats knowledge when I talk about a distribution, and twice now you focus on one aspect of that distribution, and the smallest aspect of it at that.

Oh DO tell. Do explain what you mean by distribution

[Snowball]

What about Pearce getting dropped after being arguably our best defender whilst Mills and Kishanishvili was suspended?

Plenty on here didn't think he'd be dropped. As VM pointed out earlier, you were advocating Kishanishvili in midfield the other day.

I still think Kish just in front of Mills-Pearce would be a stronger set-up

I think Kish would then be in charge of the game, old-school, a midfield general
and that we would score a few more, concede less.

With Kish stopping a few attacks I would happily trust Pearce-Mills behind him

[Ian Royal]

What about Pearce getting dropped after being arguably our best defender whilst Mills and Kishanishvili was suspended?

Plenty on here didn't think he'd be dropped. As VM pointed out earlier, you were advocating Kishanishvili in midfield the other day.

I still think Kish just in front of Mills-Pearce would be a stronger set-up

I think Kish would then be in charge of the game, old-school, a midfield general
and that we would score a few more, concede less.

With Kish stopping a few attacks I would happily trust Pearce-Mills behind him

So who would you drop to accomodate him from; the so far very good Karacan, more creative Howard, quality Tabb and would you stick with just one upfront? It would also seem strange to introduce a new formation when we already have two that are working fairly well most the time.

[Snowball]

I'd prefer to play 12, but, presuming that's against the rules, I'd currently drop Tabb, one of my favourite players, who looked a long way off fully fit v Doncaster.

When Tabb is fully fit then I'd play Kish and 2 from the obvious 3. Wouldn't WANT to drop any of them. All three of Tabb, Howard, Karacan are VG players, but we lack a player who CONTROLS and orchestrates from midfield.

Ideally we'd buy one. Fabregas would do, failing that, Wilshire, but, if we can't afford that kind of "general" then I'd try Kish and try to use his class and experience more.

Currently, Kish does his defensive job, but as DM he'd still do a defensive job AND make things happen.

I would consider the idea of HARTE there instead, Armstrong in at LB (unless those old injuries are back). We have two "firebrands" in Tabb and Karacan but we don't have a lot of CONTROL, that foot-on-the-ball THINKER.

I think, that one change, new man or old hand, would make us a lot more "sound". Right now we get results but rarely look truly in charge.

Does that make sense?

[Snowball]

An old hand (Kish/Harte) or an expensive classy general, in front of the back four I was presuming was in 451 with Howard the creator, probably, and one from Tabb/karacan.

In 442 the need for a good, ball-winning general is increased. then I'd have to drop Howard, which would be a pain.

[Hoop Blah]

I agree on the need, but not the solution.

Kishanishvili may well do a good job in there but I'm not convinced for some reason, probably because I've never really seen him play there properly. I just think you'd lose too much by moving him out of the back four. You'd also lose that competition and cover that having Mills, Pearce and him competing for the two centre half spots. I think thats vitally important.

[Vision]

Isnt the whole notion of a foot on the ball thinking midfield general a bit redundant when we dont really pass through midfield but generally look get it in the channels as early as possible.

Its a nice idea but for me Kish is our best centre half so taking him away from that position can only weaken it and I just fear with the way we play he'll end up playing virtually as a 3rd centre-half anyway and will limit our ability to press higher up the pitch.

Its odd that we don't pass a bit more from the back really given that Kish, Harte and Griffin are all very good passers. I guess we just prefer to sacrifice accuracy for tempo for the most part.

[Z175]

I love the fact we could finish anywhere from 2nd to 22nd without being too surprised.

If we fluke a win against a rapidly off the boil QPR I think we should change the title of this thread!

[Snowball]

I agree on the need, but not the solution.

Harte maybe? if we were looking to buy or loan, who could it be?

Harte is confident on the ball, has a brilliant pass on him, is good in the tackle, a reasonable header.
I fancy he's a leader too. he seems to talk to the others more than Millsy. Maybe Harte in there and Armstrong LB?

If Armstrong is long-term fit enough, and Harte COULD DO it (think he could but don't KNOW)
we'd have improved the side without spending and we'd still have the free-kick resource

Kishanishvili may well do a good job in there but I'm not convinced for some reason, probably because I've never really seen him play there properly. I just think you'd lose too much by moving him out of the back four. You'd also lose that competition and cover that having Mills, Pearce and him competing for the two centre half spots. I think thats vitally important.

Just in snippets, coming forward (eg v Swansea) I thought he looked twice his worth
and I believe he plays DM for Georgia. Any You-Tube evidence?

But I really don't think Pearce-Mills is that bad a CB pairing. (What's the latest on Ingi, BTW. That's gone quiet...)

[Snowball]

I love the fact we could finish anywhere from 2nd to 22nd without being too surprised.

If we fluke a win against a rapidly off the boil QPR I think we should change the title of this thread!

Yes, and I find that a bit weird and scary. Felt that when I looked at the coming nine games.

Usually I think my team is going to get (for example) 12-14 points and I'd be surprised to be under 10 or over 15
but the current RFC side looks brittle somehow. I don't quite now how to explain it, but they keep goals out while
looking like they are going to concede plenty. We were let off the hook at Leicester, could easily have lost at Millwall,
and I think we've had at least three breaks against us with 3 or 4 opposition players v 1 defender, and somehow not conceded.

Bizarrely we could have beaten Scunny, Millwall, Preston, got points off Bristol and Swansea, but we could have lost to Donny etc.

Is that "us" or just the finely-balanced, needs some luck Championship?

[Snowball]

(a) Isnt the whole notion of a foot on the ball thinking midfield general a bit redundant when we dont really pass through midfield but generally look get it in the channels as early as possible.

(b) Its a nice idea but for me Kish is our best centre half so taking him away from that position can only weaken it and I just fear with the way we play he'll end up playing virtually as a 3rd centre-half anyway and will limit our ability to press higher up the pitch.

(c) Its odd that we don't pass a bit more from the back really given that Kish, Harte and Griffin are all very good passers. I guess we just prefer to sacrifice accuracy for tempo for the most part.

(a) But is that BECAUSE we don't have a Kish type in there? Much as I like Tabb and Karacan (and I do) they are buzzing around types, and Karacan occasionally looks like a headless chicken (much less this season, but still not "composed". He disrupts the other side but in a sort of random way, and I think that's why we never look really sure-footed. Maybe I'm dreaming and that sort of football doesn't get played so much now, at least not in the Championship, but i remember the days when the ball was won and "always" given to the play-maker, Len Hill at Newport County, Giles at Leeds, Fabregas now (though he's more mobile.)

I think that composure and the deadly pass is what is missing.

(b) Agree Kish is first-choice CB and he MIGHT drop back, dunno, but he plays MF for Georgia, probably knows what he's doing. My instinct, though is we'd gain more than we lost.

(c) Accuracy can GIVE tempo, surely?

[Vision]

(a) Isnt the whole notion of a foot on the ball thinking midfield general a bit redundant when we dont really pass through midfield but generally look get it in the channels as early as possible.

(b) Its a nice idea but for me Kish is our best centre half so taking him away from that position can only weaken it and I just fear with the way we play he'll end up playing virtually as a 3rd centre-half anyway and will limit our ability to press higher up the pitch.

(c) Its odd that we don't pass a bit more from the back really given that Kish, Harte and Griffin are all very good passers. I guess we just prefer to sacrifice accuracy for tempo for the most part.

(a) But is that BECAUSE we don't have a Kish type in there? Much as I like Tabb and Karacan (and I do) they are buzzing around types, and Karacan occasionally looks like a headless chicken (much less this season, but still not "composed". He disrupts the other side but in a sort of random way, and I think that's why we never look really sure-footed. Maybe I'm dreaming and that sort of football doesn't get played so much now, at least not in the Championship, but i remember the days when the ball was won and "always" given to the play-maker, Len Hill at Newport County, Giles at Leeds, Fabregas now (though he's more mobile.)

I think that composure and the deadly pass is what is missing.

(b) Agree Kish is first-choice CB and he MIGHT drop back, dunno, but he plays MF for Georgia, probably knows what he's doing. My instinct, though is we'd gain more than we lost.

(c) Accuracy can GIVE tempo, surely?

(A) Rodgers would at times have that type as a sort "Quarter back" type player sitting in front of the back 4 swicthing the play. He used Karacan there for us a couple of times but he was wrong for it really.At Watford he got Jack Cork in on loan to do a similiar thing and although it looks quite pleasing I've always thought it was too easy to defend against as it starts from too deep. Thats why I dont think it would suit Kish. I actually think Tabb might be a good enough passer to do it perhaps. I think the traditional playmaker you talk about would play further forward and Gylfi is probably the nearest we've got to it in recent times although I'm sure that was the hope we all had for Marek. I think its difficult in the modern game as its so fast and time on the ball is at a premium even allowing for the fact that better players can give themselves a little more time. Kish can be a little casual even in defence & I think in the hurly burly of a championship midfield he wont get the time he'll need.

(B) Back to the tempo issue again for me. The tempo of intenational football is a lot slower and teams tend to defend a bit deeper. He'd have more time in an average International game than an average championship one in my opinion.

(C) Absolutely it can and in an ideal world its much more pleasing on the eye in my opinion. However as in the cases of Cork and Karacan under Rodgers' teams its becomes a bit slow and predictable because the focus is on 1 player.Harper was a much maligned player for us but he was generally very accurate with his passing but it didnt always add to the tempo of attacks.
Donny demonstrated at times on Saturday that it can be done but it requires pretty much the whole team to be comfortable with it, which takes time to work on. We just seem to prefer Karacan / Howard to hook the ball forward over their shoulders in the general direction of the wing if they have their back to goal, whereas Stock and Oster for Donny were always looking to play to feet and go backwards if necessary.

That contrast in styles was what made Saturday's game entertaining for me even before our superb comeback.

[fester_royal]

[quote="Vision"]Isnt the whole notion of a foot on the ball thinking midfield general a bit redundant when we dont really pass through midfield but generally look get it in the channels as early as possible.

but then again if we had that midfielder that we've been crying out for since sidders left surely it would provide the plan b we so sorely need?
when kebe is having a slow day or the better teams close him down then we lack options.

[Snowball]

How often do we try the threaded ball or a midfield 1-2?

It's bang it out to Kebbs, or Mills blasting a 7,000 yard diagonal to McAnuff or long punt No. 956 to Shane on-his-own Long.

Sometimes I'm amazed we EVER score.

[Vision]

Isnt the whole notion of a foot on the ball thinking midfield general a bit redundant when we dont really pass through midfield but generally look get it in the channels as early as possible.

but then again if we had that midfielder that we've been crying out for since sidders left surely it would provide the plan b we so sorely need?
when kebe is having a slow day or the better teams close him down then we lack options.

Sidwell for all his attributes was never that type of player. Putting his foot on it and passing was the weakest part of his game.

Matejovsky,Tabb, Howard,Gylfi, even Fae and Harper would all be labelled as passers ahead of Sidwell yet we've rarely played in a style which would use them in that way.

Rodgers was trying to be fair, but it needs familiarity to build that type of game and he didnt help himself by chopping and changing the team too much.

[Snowball]

What about Harte in there?

[Vision]

How often do we try the threaded ball or a midfield 1-2?

It's bang it out to Kebbs, or Mills blasting a 7,000 yard diagonal to McAnuff or long punt No. 956 to Shane on-his-own Long.

Sometimes I'm amazed we EVER score.

Because on their day Kebe and McAnuff are as good as anyone at this level.

We do it from time to time and we've scored from threaded balls in the last 2 games its just that under pressure we play to our strengths which is generally with our wide players.

Also I hate to say it but although Long's first touch has improved he's still not great at holding the ball when playing with his back to goal, which is what you'd need to play a more possession based game. He runs the channels well and wins more than his fair share of flick-ons so we tend to play into areas more often than into fit.

As I said before I do think we've got players who are very good passers but whether we've enough at the moment to make that our main approach (and to be successful at it) I doubt.

[Snowball]

I see very few balls to Shane's feet when he's back-to-goal. He had one v Donny which he lost.

Is that a chicken-egg thing?

They don't send them in because they think he'll mis-control
or he's always flicking balls on because that's all the ball he gets?