Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

[paultheroyal]

I can't believe that you're using Hillsborough as an argument against safe-standing - that's a frighteningly simplistic and ill-informed view that has been thoroughly discredited, and one which virtually nobody subscribes to any more.

If you really think that's a valid argument I'm afraid I don't accept your claim that "you have plenty of knowledge"

One seat / One Ticket / One Persons space etc.....

From personal experience, and on top of any other argument put forward, i have personnally snapped my cruciate ligament, and torn my cartliage when Reading played Bournemouth down at Dean Court in 2002. Butler scored if i recall correctly to equalise, everyone rushes forward, i get pushed, down a step and snap, and pretty much brings my refereeing career to an end.

It is not a case of just having a set number of people into a terraced area. These people jump around / surge etc etc and right or wrong, those days at modern games and grounds are at an end.

[Svlad Cjelli]

The days of great big terraces with few lateral barriers are long gone, yes - no-one is talking about them. People are talking about much smaller, properly designed safe-standing areas, as in the numerous pictures in this thread.

They are quite different from what was at Bournemouth in 2002.

[Terminal Boardom]

Until foortball fans remove the stigma associated with them regards to violence, obscene behaviour and general thuggery, it will NEVER happen.

[working class hero]

I can't believe that you're using Hillsborough as an argument against safe-standing - that's a frighteningly simplistic and ill-informed view that has been thoroughly discredited, and one which virtually nobody subscribes to any more.

If you really think that's a valid argument I'm afraid I don't accept your claim that "you have plenty of knowledge"

There is an inextricable link between Hillsborough / hooliganism and terracing. It is a false link BUT it lives in the minds of many as it keeps getting thrown into the mix.

When you wrote 'In your opinion, maybe, but I think you're massively in a minority on this, with your ideas fixed and your mind closed to anything you don't want to hear.' you brought to mind a phrase about pots and kettles.

Those of us old enough to remember terraces will remember surges where crushes developed as fights started [or even as fans celebrated]. Clearly this was not the situation in lower league football where tumbleweed blew around. However, over a number of years there were deaths due to overcrowding and problems limiting flow of fans [St Andrews, and Ibrox are examples]. Heysel also showed what can happen when pressure from bodies is applied. There were many instances of broken limbs and ribs as well as multiple other injuries. In our current litigation conscious society Clubs might be less happy to run the risks!

Our most recent experience of terracing involved a wall collapse at Torquay which could easily have involved serious injuries. That wall was designed to collapse under pressure to prevent crushing. Yet many wanted action against TUFC.

I suppose Svlad, you would both like to have cake and eat it?

I am one of those who would like a return to terraces, but the blinkered and sententious approach of the FSF appalls

[Red]

I'm massively in favour of allowing standing too - but you've got that spot on wch.

[weybridgewanderer]

http://www.jofh.co.uk/?page_id=361

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Those of us old enough to remember terraces will remember surges where crushes developed as fights started [or even as fans celebrated]. Clearly this was not the situation in lower league football where tumbleweed blew around. However, over a number of years there were deaths due to overcrowding and problems limiting flow of fans [St Andrews, and Ibrox are examples].

Neither Ibrox nor the death at St andrews had anything to do with terracing. How can you attribute the deaths of fans on a stairway outside the ground to terracing?

Heysel also showed what can happen when pressure from bodies is applied.

The same could potentially happened in a seated area. You can blame Liverpool fans for invading their section and causing a panic for that, not terracing.

I don't think people are suggesting going back to having home and away fans in adjacent sections of terracing. If there is an away terrace in Germany, it's usually at the opposite end of the ground from the home terrace.

I am one of those who would like a return to terraces, but the blinkered and sententious approach of the FSF appalls

The key thing is understanding the difference between saying something isn't completely without risk, and saying that it is dangerous.

Crossing the road, for example, isn't completely safe, yet that doesn't make it dangerous. For the past 20 years or so the FLA's stance was that terracing is dangerous and allowing it was unthinkable. Remarkably a number of fans seem to share that viewpoint, even if they happily stood on terracing in the past and wouldn't think twice about doing so if we drew a lower division team in the cup.

[working class hero]

Ibrox appened because of problems limiting flow of fans - something which is more difficult to control on terraces. Have you ever wondered what would happen if there were a disaster at the Madstad? It takes ages to clear the seating - which does of course minimise the risk of dangerous crushes.

[handbags_harris]

Thank you for your email. I will not be voting for the Bill as I am not persuaded that such standing would be safe.

[working class hero]

The same could potentially happened in a seated area. You can blame Liverpool fans for invading their section and causing a panic for that, not terracing.

Again seating makes an invasion very difficult and in this way it is safer. Had we stood next to the Wolves fans behind the goal in the play offs it would have been chaos. Even in seats it was very threatening and frankly very unpleasant.

So yes terracing can be blamed - if only for facilitating hooliganism.

Seating does not prevent problems completely. Leeds fans used seats as missiles back in the European Cup final in 1975 - but for those who watched the game we were convinced it would have been worse on terraces.

And still I would go back to standing as a first choice!

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Ibrox appened because of problems limiting flow of fans - something which is more difficult to control on terraces. Have you ever wondered what would happen if there were a disaster at the Madstad? It takes ages to clear the seating - which does of course minimise the risk of dangerous crushes.

No it didn't. Ibrox happened because they didn't appeciate the dangers of a long staircase that gets crowded. There wasn't "a crush" caused by too many people. People fell when a large number of fans trying to get out met a large number trying to get back in. As they fell it caused a domino effect.

The same could potentially happened in a seated area. You can blame Liverpool fans for invading their section and causing a panic for that, not terracing.

Again seating makes an invasion very difficult and in this way it is safer. Had we stood next to the Wolves fans behind the goal in the play offs it would have been chaos. Even in seats it was very threatening and frankly very unpleasant.

So yes terracing can be blamed - if only for facilitating hooliganism.

Seating does not prevent problems completely. Leeds fans used seats as missiles back in the European Cup final in 1975 - but for those who watched the game we were convinced it would have been worse on terraces.

And still I would go back to standing as a first choice!

How does seating make invasion difficult? It also makes it much harder for people to get out of the way if trouble does start.

And again, people aren't really suggesting bringing back terraces for away fans. The link between crowd trouble and terracing is hard to dispute as it allows troublemakers to gather together easier, but how often did you see trouble on home terraces, except when the away fans were right next to the home fans?

As I said above, that's one thing they definitely avoid in Germany.

[ruprecht]

No it didn't. Ibrox happened because they didn't appeciate the dangers of a long staircase that gets crowded. There wasn't "a crush" caused by too many people. People fell when a large number of fans trying to get out met a large number trying to get back in. As they fell it caused a domino effect.

On this subject does anyone remember the stairs of death outside the east stand when the madejski first opened? Terraces aren't intrisically dangerous, bad design of terraces is. But as shown with the staircase incidents bad design of anything where a high volume of people are concerned is dangerous. Be it a train station, airport or football terrace.

[Red]

No it didn't. Ibrox happened because they didn't appeciate the dangers of a long staircase that gets crowded. There wasn't "a crush" caused by too many people. People fell when a large number of fans trying to get out met a large number trying to get back in. As they fell it caused a domino effect.

On this subject does anyone remember the stairs of death outside the east stand when the madejski first opened? Terraces aren't intrisically dangerous, bad design of terraces is. But as shown with the staircase incidents bad design of anything where a high volume of people are concerned is dangerous. Be it a train station, airport or football terrace.

Yes I remember those, saved about a 5 minute walk round. Then people just walked down the hill until they built the fence.

I also remember someone had cut a whole in the fence shortly after it went up allowing people to walk down the hill again

[St Pauli]

Thank you for your email. I will not be voting for the Bill as I am not persuaded that such standing would be safe.

+1 only from Rob Wilson.

[Big Foot]

Thank you for your email. I will not be voting for the Bill as I am not persuaded that such standing would be safe.

Radio silence from Alok Sharma for me.

[Jerry St Clair]

It is not a case of just having a set number of people into a terraced area. These people jump around / surge etc etc and right or wrong, those days at modern games and grounds are at an end.

Congratulations. You've missed the point. Again.

Surging would not be possible in a safe standing area. For the millionth time, they are totally different to old style terraces.

Could you explain why jumping around in a safe standing area would be more dangerous than in the East Stand?

[Red]

Thank you for your email. I will not be voting for the Bill as I am not persuaded that such standing would be safe.

Radio silence from Alok Sharma for me.

As your democratically elected representative, that stinks.

I'd suggest writing him a letter. If that still doesn't yield a response, get the EP involved.

[PlasticRoyale]

ghey

[Ian Royal]

Thank you for your email. I will not be voting for the Bill as I am not persuaded that such standing would be safe.

Radio silence from Alok Sharma for me.

Nothing as yet from Mr Huppert either.

[biscuitman]

Rob Wilson has kindly not answered my questions and refered me to a review they undertook in 2001! It was a standard template.