Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

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West Stand Man
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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by West Stand Man » 21 Dec 2010 11:37

Svlad Cjelli See my post on page two of this thread, which references The Green Guide on capacities and which clearly shows that the benefit to be offered isn't just a sneering " ... the fans will be happy."

Instead, the potential benefit is an 80% increase in capacity for any area converted to safe-standing. Should the club be promoted and selling capacity every week, which isn't too far-fetched a scenario, then this is a relatively cheap way to increase capacity - much cheaper than a full-blown stadium expansion, anyway. Yes of course there is capital outlay, but the increase in income - assuming the capacity can be sold, of course - will give a payback over a certain number of months, which can be properly considered just like any other business case.

Anyway, you seem to be talking just about the MadStad. But this isn't just about the one stadium. It's about places like Scunny - under the current legislation this is the last season they are allowed a standing area so they have to convert to seating (expensively, cutting their already low capacity) to absolutely no advantage and for no safety reasons - just an out-dated law.

It's also about lots of other grounds where Reading may visit, including potential new builds. You obviously like to sit at matches, and fair play to you, that's your choice - if you go to away matches, where you have no choice on seating, you're likely to have someone in front of you who likes to stand. The benefit to you is that if they have the choice of a safe-standing area they'll go stand there and those people who can't or don't want to sit can do so more easily.

So it's pointless arguing about the suitability of the MadStad - that comes later (maybe with expansion work in future?)) but the law needs changing first, which is where we are now.


So, I'll keep my business case going then.

"Oh, sorry Mr Madejski, there is a view that we will be able to increase the capacity of the stands where we go to 'safe standing' by up to 80%. Ok, we can't sell out the current capacity but at least we'll have the spare room for the odd time when we have a potential large crowd. Oh, and at the moment that is likely to be the rare FA Cup match against a top 6 team - just the time when the possible crowd risks increase."

Still not very convincing is it?

I hear the case that this is about more than Madejski Stadium but I still think that this is a long term aspiration of a relatively small but very vocal minority of football fans.

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Svlad Cjelli
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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Svlad Cjelli » 21 Dec 2010 11:42

I don't know if you're deliberately not seeing it, but for some reason you're ignoring the fact that in every post about increased capacity I have put the caveat that we'd need to be sure that we could sell that extra capacity. That's an absolute given, of course - but just 3 years ago we were talking about a 12,000 increase of capacity for the MadStad so who knows what the future brings.

I've never said this is about converting the MadStad tomorrow - economic conditions have to be right, which is why this is a long-term process, and the very first stage is removing the law which denies clubs the choice to decide how they want their grounds arranged and what options they want to offer to their customers.

Also see my previous post about Scunny and away grounds.

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Bandini » 21 Dec 2010 12:09

Svlad Cjelli I don't know if you're deliberately not seeing it, but for some reason you're ignoring the fact that in every post about increased capacity I have put the caveat that we'd need to be sure that we could sell that extra capacity. That's an absolute given, of course - but just 3 years ago we were talking about a 12,000 increase of capacity for the MadStad so who knows what the future brings.


There's also the point that if the product was made better - ie more in line with what the supporter wants - it is likely that demand would be increased.

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Ian Royal
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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Ian Royal » 21 Dec 2010 12:55

Bandini
Svlad Cjelli I don't know if you're deliberately not seeing it, but for some reason you're ignoring the fact that in every post about increased capacity I have put the caveat that we'd need to be sure that we could sell that extra capacity. That's an absolute given, of course - but just 3 years ago we were talking about a 12,000 increase of capacity for the MadStad so who knows what the future brings.


There's also the point that if the product was made better - ie more in line with what the supporter wants - it is likely that demand would be increased.

ditto cheaper - you never know.

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 21 Dec 2010 14:06

Ian Royal
Bandini
Svlad Cjelli I don't know if you're deliberately not seeing it, but for some reason you're ignoring the fact that in every post about increased capacity I have put the caveat that we'd need to be sure that we could sell that extra capacity. That's an absolute given, of course - but just 3 years ago we were talking about a 12,000 increase of capacity for the MadStad so who knows what the future brings.


There's also the point that if the product was made better - ie more in line with what the supporter wants - it is likely that demand would be increased.

ditto cheaper - you never know.

And a better atmosphere too. How many complain that games at the Madejski are a bit dull because the atmosphere's poor?


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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Red » 21 Dec 2010 15:37

It's interesting watching this debate unfold.

I remember when terracing was banned thinking that it would definitely be gone for good - because once you've lost the generation who grew up on the terraces, and know how brilliant that was - you're never going to get anyone championing their return.

Just 10ish years on from Elm Park and there's a load of people dead set against even giving people the option to stand. Fast forward another 10 or 20 years and there'll be hardly anyone left.

So I hope this campaign is successful, but without wanting to sound too alarmist if it fails then we're probably all destined to watch football sat down for generations more.

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Harpers So Solid Crew » 21 Dec 2010 16:26

So Mr Madejski it has been suggested that now it is legal for fans to stand at football in safe and designated areas we should follow suit and look at adapting areas at the Madstad to allow it here.

JM- why we have a lovely ground with a superb name, I like it how it is, won't it be expensive?

There is a cost of course, we have reckoned that cost to be about £100 per standing place, achieved by the use of barriers in front of seats for leaning on.

JM-why do people even want to stand? Sitting is much more comfortable.

There is still an opinion that standing helps create an atmosphere, and a comradarie that you do not get in seated areas. STAR have backed the idea here Sir

JM-Well I am worried about the cost, to be honest.

Well sir there is also a view that many fans no longer attend, as they no longer enjoy the experience of the all seated arenas. Also there are other fans that get annoyed by the standing of others and the continual flash points involving stewards attempting to control fans.

JM- If we were to spend this money do you think that we could show how we care about all fans, and would we be able to say after spending money on the new areas that we had to cut back on the football side, like we did for the media centre?

Yes that would be perfectly acceptable. We can dress it up any way you like

JM- Right lets have standing areas for home and away fans.

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Ian Royal » 21 Dec 2010 17:19

:lol:

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by West Stand Man » 21 Dec 2010 17:31

Harpers So Solid Crew So Mr Madejski it has been suggested that now it is legal for fans to stand at football in safe and designated areas we should follow suit and look at adapting areas at the Madstad to allow it here.

JM- why we have a lovely ground with a superb name, I like it how it is, won't it be expensive?

There is a cost of course, we have reckoned that cost to be about £100 per standing place, achieved by the use of barriers in front of seats for leaning on.

JM-why do people even want to stand? Sitting is much more comfortable.

There is still an opinion that standing helps create an atmosphere, and a comradarie that you do not get in seated areas. STAR have backed the idea here Sir

JM-Well I am worried about the cost, to be honest.

Well sir there is also a view that many fans no longer attend, as they no longer enjoy the experience of the all seated arenas. Also there are other fans that get annoyed by the standing of others and the continual flash points involving stewards attempting to control fans.



JM- If we were to spend this money do you think that we could show how we care about all fans, and would we be able to say after spending money on the new areas that we had to cut back on the football side, like we did for the media centre?

Yes that would be perfectly acceptable. We can dress it up any way you like

JM- Right lets have standing areas for home and away fans.


You have a potential career in fiction writing. :D
Last edited by West Stand Man on 22 Dec 2010 09:47, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by LWJ » 21 Dec 2010 20:50

Richard Benyon says he will follow the Bill closely but doesn't feel he should support as of yet :roll:

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by St Pauli » 22 Dec 2010 11:17

Red It's interesting watching this debate unfold.

I remember when terracing was banned thinking that it would definitely be gone for good - because once you've lost the generation who grew up on the terraces, and know how brilliant that was - you're never going to get anyone championing their return.

Just 10ish years on from Elm Park and there's a load of people dead set against even giving people the option to stand. Fast forward another 10 or 20 years and there'll be hardly anyone left.

So I hope this campaign is successful, but without wanting to sound too alarmist if it fails then we're probably all destined to watch football sat down for generations more.


Not necessarily. I've been to Elm Park, but I'm young enough that the vast majority of my footballing memory comes from the Madejski. I would rather stand then sit. Granted a lot of my love of standing comes from doing it when I watched Exeter City and from when I lived in Germany, but there's no reason why that shouldn't be the case for a significant minority of youngsters coming into the game especially at bigger or more raucous clubs where there is still persistent standing from large parts of the crowd every game.

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Ian Royal
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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Ian Royal » 22 Dec 2010 11:27

"Dear Ian,

Thank you for your email about the Safe Standing Bill launched by my Lib Dem colleague Don Foster.

I am supportive of the aims of this bill. Unfortunately the bill is last on the list of bills to be debated on 17th June 2011, so is extremely unlikely to be debated. If there is not enough time for debate to be completed there will be no vote on this issue. However, I will certainly endeavour to be present if it looks like there will be time for a vote on the bill. I will also sign EDM 101 ‘Standing Areas at Football Grounds’ to express my support and raise awareness of this issue.

I hope that this is helpful.

Yours sincerely,
Julian Huppert
Member of Parliament for Cambridge
"

woohoo a (semi) positive response.

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Harpers So Solid Crew » 22 Dec 2010 11:30

West Stand Man
Harpers So Solid Crew So Mr Madejski it has been suggested that now it is legal for fans to stand at football in safe and designated areas we should follow suit and look at adapting areas at the Madstad to allow it here.

JM- why we have a lovely ground with a superb name, I like it how it is, won't it be expensive?

There is a cost of course, we have reckoned that cost to be about £100 per standing place, achieved by the use of barriers in front of seats for leaning on.

JM-why do people even want to stand? Sitting is much more comfortable.

There is still an opinion that standing helps create an atmosphere, and a comradarie that you do not get in seated areas. STAR have backed the idea here Sir

JM-Well I am worried about the cost, to be honest.

Well sir there is also a view that many fans no longer attend, as they no longer enjoy the experience of the all seated arenas. Also there are other fans that get annoyed by the standing of others and the continual flash points involving stewards attempting to control fans.



JM- If we were to spend this money do you think that we could show how we care about all fans, and would we be able to say after spending money on the new areas that we had to cut back on the football side, like we did for the media centre?

Yes that would be perfectly acceptable. We can dress it up any way you like

JM- Right lets have standing areas for home and away fans.


You have a potential career in fiction writing. :D


:wink:


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Harpers So Solid Crew
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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Harpers So Solid Crew » 22 Dec 2010 11:31

Sounds typical LD response, don't expect it to get heard, but will endeavour to be there if it does, much like promising to vote against any rise in stundent fees.

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Big Foot » 24 Dec 2010 13:02

Thinking about where a possible standing area would be...if you were used to your seat and view and liked it, would you swap that for the chance to stand?

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 24 Dec 2010 15:08

To those who insist terracing is an anachronism, as has no place in modern stadiums...

Here are examples of more new stadiums, built with terracing.

Denmark - Horsens


Sweden - Malmo


Norway
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sunrise/95 ... otostream/

They are even getting in on the act in Thailand, with this brand new vertigo-inducing 3 tier terrace


(nice to see Tesco continuining their bid for world domination in that first pic)

Other new stadiums, such as the new Galatasaray stadium, are going down the safe standing route


They are of course used to standing in seated areas, which is quite common in Southern Europe. It's a big reason why they don't have terraces. In Italy, for example, most grounds have areas where backless seats are bolted straight onto the floor to become nominally seated, but are just treated as terraces (which strikes me as hugely dangerous as there are no barriers at all).

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by ZacNaloen » 24 Dec 2010 17:04

What are those bars in front of the seats in that bottom photo? looks like hand rails

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Rev Algenon Stickleback H » 24 Dec 2010 17:08

ZacNaloen What are those bars in front of the seats in that bottom photo? looks like hand rails

that's "safe standing", as oppsed to terracing. Two completely different things. Safe standing has bars like that to allow people to stand without the danger of them falling forwards.

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by ZacNaloen » 25 Dec 2010 16:19

Looks good to me, lets do it. Just only in designated areas I can't stand all game comfortably so I need my comfortable view from my seat...

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Re: Safe-standing areas - TIME FOR ACTION

by Big Foot » 25 Dec 2010 23:53

Received my reply from Alok Sharma - the short story is that it's a no.

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