Pub football (watching of it)

[ZacNaloen]

Cheap, European football of our favourite small teams looks like it might make a come back


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12355022

[Stranded]

Never gone away if you know where to look. And with the advent of many high quality internet streams of games, you don't even need to subscribe to a foreign sports channel.

[roadrunner]

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/03022011/ ... ution.html

A pub landlady from Portsmouth has won a court case that means football fans will be allowed to use cheap foreign TV decoders to watch Premier League matches.

The landmark decision by an adviser to Europe's top court is expected to have a huge impact on the way the Premier League sells broadcasting rights.

The opinion by Advocate General Juliane Kokott (Beautiful British name) at the European Court of Justice centres on whether a rights holder such as the Premier League can license its content on a country-by-country basis, allowing it to maximise the value of its rights, as it currently does.

Kokott's opinion concerned two cases, one of them involving landlady Karen Murphy, who owns the 'Red, White and Blue' in Portsmouth.

Murphy acquired a Greek decoder to show Premier League games on her pub TV, on the grounds that the Sky Sports monthly subscription was prohibitively expensive.

She was subsequently sued by a body representing the broadcasting interests of the 20 English Premier League clubs, and appealed to the ECJ after losing her case in an English court and being ordered to pay a fine.

The second case involved the FA Premier League against two suppliers of foreign satellite equipment. The English body had earlier settled with a number of pub landlords who had used the decoders to show football matches.

Though Kokott's ruling is officially non-binding, judges are expected to back the advocate general's line in the majority of cases.

"The exclusivity agreement relating to transmission of football matches is contrary to European Union law," Kokott said in her opinion.

"(The) exclusivity rights in question have the effect of partitioning the internal market into quite separate national markets, something which constitutes a serious impairment of the freedom to provide services."

The Premier League has benefited in recent years from the huge demand for its rights and has taken action against a number of persistent offenders who have shown live games using decoders with viewing cards for foreign broadcasters.

But Kokott said such use did not undermine the economic benefits of the rights holders.

"There is ... no specific right to charge different prices for a work in each member state," she said.

BSkyB's Sky Sports, which owns the right to show most of the matches shown live in Britain and Ireland, makes about £200 million in revenues from pubs and clubs according to analysts at Jefferies Research.

They estimated an adverse ruling could have a £60m to £70m impact.

"However, given Sky's integral role in sports rights, we would expect the impact to be muted with (the Premier League) to offer remedies to limit the impact," Jefferies Research wrote in a client note ahead of the adviser's opinion.

[roadrunner]

If this goes ahead, what sort of impact might it have on the smaller football clubs like your Bury's, Crewe's, Hereford's? Families deciding to instead stay at home and watch a game on telly, or none to little effect at all?

Could it even reach the higher levels of the football pyramid and bring down the cost of tickets, season tickets, if most football fans can just go down their local, or open up their browser and stay at home?

[Skyline]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103781

[Red]

EU in common sense shock

[Franchise FC]

Don't celebrate too soon.

This will open the door for teams to negotiate their own deals rather than one for the PL as a whole.

If you think it's expensive now ...........

[SpaceCruiser]

I would rather post on this than Jay's thread.

[bobbybottler]

I'd rather lie down on the nearby main line to Waterloo than go to the pub in question.

[Stranded]

Don't celebrate too soon.

This will open the door for teams to negotiate their own deals rather than one for the PL as a whole.

If you think it's expensive now ...........

Then people simply won't pay. There is a limit - some of the big clubs will get enough subscribers I'm sure but most will have to make it viable on a game by game basis. An armchair fan won't buy a package for more than one club, for example, someone will not buy a Man U and Liverpool package.

In many ways, having every game available live for a decent fee could be the future as lets face it at the moment, if you want to watch football at 3pm on a Saturday at home, there are many ways to do it.

[Franchise FC]

Don't celebrate too soon.

This will open the door for teams to negotiate their own deals rather than one for the PL as a whole.

If you think it's expensive now ...........

Then people simply won't pay. There is a limit - some of the big clubs will get enough subscribers I'm sure but most will have to make it viable on a game by game basis. An armchair fan won't buy a package for more than one club, for example, someone will not buy a Man U and Liverpool package.

In many ways, having every game available live for a decent fee could be the future as lets face it at the moment, if you want to watch football at 3pm on a Saturday at home, there are many ways to do it.

Which will inevitably mean the rich get richer ......

[AthleticoSpizz]

Don't celebrate too soon.

This will open the door for teams to negotiate their own deals rather than one for the PL as a whole.

If you think it's expensive now ...........

Then people simply won't pay. There is a limit - some of the big clubs will get enough subscribers I'm sure but most will have to make it viable on a game by game basis. An armchair fan won't buy a package for more than one club, for example, someone will not buy a Man U and Liverpool package.

In many ways, having every game available live for a decent fee could be the future as lets face it at the moment, if you want to watch football at 3pm on a Saturday at home, there are many ways to do it.

and for this very reason (tv and those that buy into it) is why you are hard pressed to watch your own team regularly play at 3pm on a Saturday

[Wimb]

This won't mean subscriptions etc get any cheaper, it'll simply means that the PL sells its next rights package to a pan European Broadcaster (probably Sky) and the PL will get 1 bigger pot of money instead of a UK + Rest of Europe deal that it gets right now.

The only reason pubs are using the dodgy satellites are to get something cheaper then other competitors and exploiting a legal loophole that will soon get closed. I don't see how it's in any way admirable or a 'right' for pubs/individuals to be able to do this, the reason it's so cheap is because it's not 100% above board and in a grey area.

Internet streaming is the biggest danger to rights money for the PL, but the cost of providing very solid streaming and at the High Def qualities that people will soon come to expect will always mean there is significant demand for official TV quality produced sport.

[Svlad Cjelli]

You say it's a legal loophole, but doesn't this ruling prove that it's a loophole that can't be closed?

I know the people at Sky are worried by the ramifications of this, but there are so many possibilities I'd not like to predict what will happen. But I do think that it'll lead to a slightly lower TV deal for the PL from Europe.

It's also significant, I think, that because Sky have jacked up the prices of their package to pubs so much recently, they've been hemorrhaging subscribers and so no wonder many have looked elsewhere. It's also pretty well known that you can watch whatever match you want in pubs at 3 pm on a Saturday, and the only pubs that have been chased (by a "revenue protection" company which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sky) are those with foreign satellite and no Sky (or cancelled Sky) those with foreign satellite AND Sky are the ones who've not been chased.

[SpaceCruiser]

It's also pretty well known that you can watch whatever match you want in pubs at 3 pm on a Saturday, and the only pubs that have been chased (by a "revenue protection" company which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sky) are those with foreign satellite and no Sky - those with foreign satellite AND Sky )or cancelled Sky) are the ones who've been chased.

Ummm, so, they're chasing all three?

[Wimb]

You say it's a legal loophole, but doesn't this ruling prove that it's a loophole that can't be closed?

I know the people at Sky are worried by the ramifications of this, but there are so many possibilities I'd not like to predict what will happen. But I do think that it'll lead to a slightly lower TV deal for the PL from Europe.

It's also significant, I think, that because Sky have jacked up the prices of their package to pubs so much recently, they've been hemorrhaging subscribers and so no wonder many have looked elsewhere. It's also pretty well known that you can watch whatever match you want in pubs at 3 pm on a Saturday, and the only pubs that have been chased (by a "revenue protection" company which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Sky) are those with foreign satellite and no Sky - those with foreign satellite AND Sky )or cancelled Sky) are the ones who've been chased.

The loophole is that pubs can seemingly or will be able to subscribe to foreign broadcasters rather then just Sky. Right now that means cheaper football as you don't have to pay Sky but the only reason those foreign broadcasters offer such a cheap option is because they pay nowhere near what Sky do for the UK PL Rights.

So all the Premier League will do is sell to a pan European broadcaster or 2 such as Sky, who will then get 1 huge cheque instead of 1 big cheque from the UK Sky and loads of smaller ones from individual continental broadcasters.
As soon as that happens then the cheap foreign satellite broadcasters won't have any Premier League to show, and if they try and show it they'll be doing so illegally and can be shut down/fined. Consumers/Pubs may see a very slight reduction in prices but it won't be anything mind blowing.

Sky aren't really haemorrhaging subscribers either, in fact they've just passed the 10 million customer point in the UK for the first time and turned in sizeable profits, not that I know the pub figures tbf. This ruling If anything this increases their leveraging tool for the next set of rights as they could bid lower on the basis that they may not have such a monopoly. People may know there are the odd pub that do show 3pm kick-offs but these are still in a very tiny minority and it's unlikely that many more will be wanting to risk showing anything while it's still a legal grey area.

[Royal With Cheese]

The loophole is that pubs can seemingly or will be able to subscribe to foreign broadcasters rather then just Sky. Right now that means cheaper football as you don't have to pay Sky but the only reason those foreign broadcasters offer such a cheap option is because they pay nowhere near what Sky do for the UK PL Rights.

So all the Premier League will do is sell to a pan European broadcaster or 2 such as Sky, who will then get 1 huge cheque instead of 1 big cheque from the UK Sky and loads of smaller ones from individual continental broadcasters.
As soon as that happens then the cheap foreign satellite broadcasters won't have any Premier League to show, and if they try and show it they'll be doing so illegally and can be shut down/fined. Consumers/Pubs may see a very slight reduction in prices but it won't be anything mind blowing.

Sky aren't really haemorrhaging subscribers either, in fact they've just passed the 10 million customer point in the UK for the first time and turned in sizeable profits, not that I know the pub figures tbf. This ruling If anything this increases their leveraging tool for the next set of rights as they could bid lower on the basis that they may not have such a monopoly. People may know there are the odd pub that do show 3pm kick-offs but these are still in a very tiny minority and it's unlikely that many more will be wanting to risk showing anything while it's still a legal grey area.

Wimb - perhaps you should declare your vested interest.

Don't you work for Sky? (Or am I confusing you with someone else?)

BTW - I thought the 10 million user mark was a bit spurious as they include broadband and phone customers.

[Wimb]

I've got ties to Sky but I say the above from a critical standpoint, in the same way I would if I had links to a pub landlord.

In terms of the 10 million customers I think it does include all the Broadband/Phone people, though I've not seen or heard anything to suggest there a significant subscriber decline but I couldn't say there isn't either!

I just find it interesting to see how this will work if the EU do open it all up, I don't know what OFCOM and the UK Government would have to say as non UK-based broadcasters could also show content that may be incompatible with current broadcasting codes here and I couldn't foresee a scenario where the UK Government would give up it's right to influence broadcasting standards. However, I'm not even entirely sure what the current rules are for buying/subscribing to non UK sanctioned satellite broadcasters is today.

In terms of football, it's difficult to know exactly how the PL will try and sell the rights and under what restrictions they'll be when selling them. The crucial part of the equation though will be the league and it's clubs desire to keep revenues as high as possible and considering that the bulk of their TV money comes from the sale of UK rights, any attempt (deliberate or otherwise) by the EU to devalue those rights would presumably be met by firm resistance by the PL and the current UK rights holders (BBC/ESPN/SKY) who would lose exclusivity and therefore a large part of the value of the rights. Why would any company want to pay £1bn for rights over three years when say a Greek platform pays £50million and can pass the savings onto subscribers?

To me that's why I can see only a slight evolution of the status quo, rather then a revolution of broadcasting rights. It's all going to get very very murky and court wrapped (much like the BT/Sky case) and there are many hurdles to clear, but that being said the can of worms has most certainly been opened.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

It was never a loophole as such as the EU has always been upfront about the free provision of service within its borders.
As such, it has been Sky bending the rules

However, this ruling could be very bad as it means that forgeign media organisations will be able to bid for exclusive rights to any league. So Sky could end up bidding for, and becoming the sole distributor for, ALL football in every league in Europe. Thereby destroying native media companies, and ramping up pricies for e.g. a cypriot to watch cypriot football, as a way to recoup money lost due to this ruling. (or use the rights as a blackmail tool to stop foreign satelite channels beaming the PL back to the UK)

[Wimb]

It was never a loophole as such as the EU has always been upfront about the free provision of service within its borders.
As such, it has been Sky bending the rules

However, this ruling could be very bad as it means that forgeign media organisations will be able to bid for exclusive rights to any league. So Sky could end up bidding for, and becoming the sole distributor for, ALL football in every league in Europe. Thereby destroying native media companies, and ramping up pricies for e.g. a cypriot to watch cypriot football, as a way to recoup money lost due to this ruling. (or use the rights as a blackmail tool to stop foreign satelite channels beaming the PL back to the UK)

Cheers JMW can't honestly say I knew that, I was under the impression that it was OFCOM who governed what TV could be broadcast within the country.

I thought the EU broke up the monopolies in any one country? hence why Sky is now not allowed to have all six live game packages for the PL and why Setanta and now ESPN have the rights....