The Summer clearout / Coming in thread. Updated 27/8

[brendywendy]

im saying in a team game, its possible that with him in, but the defence seriously weakened we would have been worse off

So, not <i>really</i> giving up then?

Well, like I said the defence didn’t really seem to improve that much apart from a good spell in September. But this was offset with a woeful November. But this is all speculation I suppose – neither of us can really prove Gylfi Reading would have been better or worse than Zurab/Harte Reading. We just have our gut feelings.

However, I’m not so sure we couldn’t have had all three in the team without going bust, especially as we sold Rasiak, Marek, Cisse and Henry. But as you have seen, I’m no accountant, though possibly an anagram of it.

LOL- shutupshutupshutupshutup!

i dont realy disagree tbf- im just saying it could easily have turned out that way.
obviously id have preferred gylfi to stay, and think that with him we'd have gone up automatically,bringing in 90 million quid of extra revenue. thus proving your point about JM being too tight.

but you cant say the defenders didnt improve the team. even with the oldies we ended up playing tabb and karacan at full back, and bryn at CB, without them we'd have been playing the kit man and kingsley in there.

[Snowball]

and...

Snowball:

Our defence DIDN’T improve, because the two players we brought in to improve it, consistently arsed up and cost us goals.

Again, get your stats out to suggest otherwise but I suggest watching the football instead of playing Barcode Battler. The stats could be reflective of anything. Each game is not an exact replication of the other. We played different teams, different weather, different referee’s, the opposition could have had an off day, or an exceptional day, our lads might have been lucky or unlucky, a tiger may have run onto the pitch and eaten Griffin’s catheter – the numbers just don’t mean anything tangible.

Football has to many executables to analyse with numbers. So like, don’t bother.

Yes, of course. FORTY-TWO times, consecutively it was "oddities".

I should have realised.

Silly Me.

1-2 Scunthorpe versus 2-0 Scunthorpe
1-1 Forest versus 4-3 Forest
1-1 Pompey versus 2-0 Pompey
2-1 Leicester versus 3-1 Leicester

5-5 and 5 points versus 11-4 and 12 points

Can't pick between them, can we?

It's much closer than I realised

[Snowball]

and...

Snowball:

Our defence DIDN’T improve, because the two players we brought in to improve it, consistently arsed up and cost us goals.

The defence didn't improve. We just let in fewer goals.

The attack didn't improve. We just scored more goals.

[RoyalBlue]

And don't forget that we are losing money now - about £2M a year, so in a way you have your wish just to keep us still..... and the £2M we stand to lose each season now could easily push us under - you can go insolvent for any sum of money if you don't have that sum.

For years we have been told how incredibly well run the club is. We have also had some pretty good seasons recently, attendances have held up really well, and we have progressed further in the cup (and this year playoffs) than ever would have been expected - income which wouldn't have been budgeted for. Yet we are still losing about £2M a year?

Seems others have a different understanding of incredibly well run from me!

[Extended-Phenotype]

Snowball:

These identical games get played on the same day, did they?

[brendywendy]

And don't forget that we are losing money now - about £2M a year, so in a way you have your wish just to keep us still..... and the £2M we stand to lose each season now could easily push us under - you can go insolvent for any sum of money if you don't have that sum.

For years we have been told how incredibly well run the club is. We have also had some pretty good seasons recently, attendances have held up really well, and we have progressed further in the cup (and this year playoffs) than ever would have been expected - income which wouldn't have been budgeted for. Yet we are still losing about £2M a year?

Seems others have a different understanding of incredibly well run from me!

for once i agree.

surely with the wage bill reduced, and the cup runs/playoffs we cant be losing 2 million a year still can we?

[Svlad Cjelli]

And don't forget that we are losing money now - about £2M a year, so in a way you have your wish just to keep us still..... and the £2M we stand to lose each season now could easily push us under - you can go insolvent for any sum of money if you don't have that sum.

For years we have been told how incredibly well run the club is. We have also had some pretty good seasons recently, attendances have held up really well, and we have progressed further in the cup (and this year playoffs) than ever would have been expected - income which wouldn't have been budgeted for. Yet we are still losing about £2M a year?

Seems others have a different understanding of incredibly well run from me!

God, this is such old, old ground. In the Championship it is just about impossible to make a profit or even break even - it's certainly impossible to be competitive and make a profit .

If you really think that "well run" equals "makes a profit" then you have an utterly unrealistic and extremely simplistic expectations.

"Well run" actually equals having the systems that mean you know exactly what your financial situation is, having the flexibilty to make changes when required, and being able to balance finances so you can remain in business AND be competitive.

To be honest, considering the financial constraints that the club operates under, for them to be financially secure and to be in contention so often is an absolute oxf*rd miracle - and that can only happen in a club that is well run.

[Arch]

Dirk has better inside knowledge than most of us, but this losing 2m a year (as if it's an ongoing thing) is news to me. I thought we had made a profit each season since 06. I do understand that the balance of regular income against regular outlay is negative. I think that is true for every single club in the Championship. Being well-run is a matter of (a) minimizing the negative balance, and (b) finding irregular sources of income each year in the form of transfers, cup-runs, etc. We've done both of those things since we came down. We're well-run in the sense that we compete in this division without gambling money we can't afford to lose.

[Royal Rother]

We lose £2m a year on normal trading then supplement it with selling a player or 2 at a profit. A small loss is a bloody good result for a club regularly challenging near the top of the Championship on crowds of 17k.

How that can possibly be considered evidence that the club is poorly run is completely beyond me.

Some people really are thick as shit I'm afraid and, even though the club is very well run, unfortunately it can't do anything about that.

[Svlad Cjelli]

From The 2011 Deloitte Annual Review of Football Finance

Championship clubs’ wages grew by 6% to £357m, which was less than their revenue growth and resulted in the wages/revenue ratio improving to 88% – albeit from a record high of 90% in the previous season. Nonetheless, worryingly around a third of clubs in the Championship reported a wages/revenue ratio of 100% or more, paying out more in wages than they earned in revenue. The correlation between wage costs and league finishing position remains weaker in the Championship overall, although evidence indicates automatic promotion to the Premier League almost always requires a top six ranked wage bill.

The aggregate net debt of the 24 Championship clubs has increased to £875m at the end of the 2009/10 season (£459m at summer 2009). Excluding Newcastle United, the figure falls to £587m in summer 2010 – but is still up £128m year on year.

Total transfer spending across the 92 top professional clubs reduced to £627m in 2009/10 (2008/09: £784m). The 20% decrease was evidence of a degree of restraint in the transfer market, although whether this translates over time to lower wages levels remains to be seen. Indications are that wage costs will have increased substantially again in 2010/11.

[Snowball]

Snowball:

These identical games get played on the same day, did they?

No they weren't, and I've just heard that QPR and Norwich are NOT to be promoted
because, though they did better on average than Reading FC, they didn't play
Portsmouth, Millwall, Sheffield Utd etc, identical teams, identical weather, and
therefore they have gained more points "unfairly".

Now, instead of using such old-fashioned ideas as "less goals conceded"
and "scored more goals", and "scored more goals than the other team"
they will instead merely ring up a chap known as "Extended Phenotype"
to ask, "So who is the best defence, EP, ignoring goals conceded, and which
team has the best, most exciting attack (ignoring goals scored) and who is
the best team (ignoring goal-difference and points won..."

[Royal Rother]

[brendywendy]

For years we have been told how incredibly well run the club is. We have also had some pretty good seasons recently, attendances have held up really well, and we have progressed further in the cup (and this year playoffs) than ever would have been expected - income which wouldn't have been budgeted for. Yet we are still losing about £2M a year?

Seems others have a different understanding of incredibly well run from me!

for once i agree.

surely with the wage bill reduced, and the cup runs/playoffs we cant be losing 2 million a year still can we?

..have you been living under a rock?
Footballers make millions. The club pays them. It's expensive.

yes yes

i just meant- i thought it was 2 million a year when they started talking about teh black hole. ie when we had a squad half full of players on big wages, and no cup runs.
surely weve got that closer to 1 million a year at least by now. shirley?!
weve sold everyone who earned alot

[Mr Angry]

Snowball:

These identical games get played on the same day, did they?

E-P - welcome.....to the Dark Side.

He who DARES to question the almighty Snowball will be SMOTE DOWN with statistical analysis (the emphasis on the anal) from this forum's MOST INTELLIGENT POSTER*





* according to Snowball

[The Surgeon of Crowthorne]

Although this is a somewhat tired and repetitive deb8, I am enjoying Extended-Phenotype's contribution to it. Far more interesting than the usual FineRain level of argument on the topic - even if I don't agree with it.
And far better written and much more amusing posts than the stat-infested drivel Snowball guff that turns virtually every thread on here unreadable.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

John Beck used to play his managerial game on stats, worked for a while, till the team did not have the players to make the stats work.

Pardew and his crosses from wingers, great except Salako just bombed down the wing and fired aimless balls in as the stats said we would score from a certain number.

Similar years ago when McIntyre was the target for kicks from the keeper, amd that fella that went to Plymouth, Lee Hodges, stats that worked for a bit, then failed longer term.

[Svlad Cjelli]

yes yes

i just meant- i thought it was 2 million a year when they started talking about teh black hole. ie when we had a squad half full of players on big wages, and no cup runs.
surely weve got that closer to 1 million a year at least by now. shirley?!
weve sold everyone who earned alot

It was £2M after the second yeard after relegation - in keeping the likes of Doyle and Hunt we'd badly over-spent in those two years trying to go straight back up (especially the first season), so it was a hang-over from then.

[No Hoops]

Out

Scott Davies (R)..........FREE
Julian Kelly (R)............FREE
Ivar Ingimarsson (EoC)
David Mooney (EoC)
James Rowe (EoC)
Danny Joyce (EoC)
A Bell Baggie (EoC)
Erik Opsahl (EooC)

Bids made for

Mills from Wolves....Turned down on 17th June 2nd bid turned down 24th(Sky Sports)

Rumoured Exits
Shane Long.....Anyones guess (Poss Bayern Munich for £7m)


In
Mikel leigertwood........£1m(est)
Brynjar Gunnarsson......1yr extension

Contracts offered to

Ha Robson-Kanu
Zurab Khizanishvili (Doubtful)
Long*
Kebe*
Jobi*
Mills*

* Hammond spoken to them about extending current contracts which expire next Summer.

New deals for

Walcott
Mills
Gage
Hector
Locke
McHugh
Murphy
MacDonald
Arnold
Goddard
Losasso
Ugwu

Updated

[Extended-Phenotype]

Stats only work towards backing up what you see with your eyes. If the stats contradict what you are seeing, then they are misleading. Players can have terrible games with little contribution but be the penultimate pass to the chap who uses all his talent to bury the ball. Oh look, the yuckbiscuit gets a frickin’ assist stat. Star player, huh?

Seem to remember watching England last summer and Lampard coming in the top 10 Actim stats of the tournament. The only thing I wished he was close to topping was himself.

Snowball:

So if you play the same opposition a year later with the same team, it will always be the same result, huh?

You are using year old stats to suggest we are a ‘better team without Gylfi’. In reality, there are more factors at play then whether one man is involved or not.

But I agree with the rest of your post – the league table really should be decided by me; I’m going to replace Won Drawn and Lost with Smiling, Hairdo’s, and Kit Accessorising.

[moo]

Stats only work towards backing up what you see with your eyes. If the stats contradict what you are seeing, then they are misleading. Players can have terrible games with little contribution but be the penultimate pass to the chap who uses all his talent to bury the ball. Oh look, the yuckbiscuit gets a frickin’ assist stat. Star player, huh?

Seem to remember watching England last summer and Lampard coming in the top 10 Actim stats of the tournament. The only thing I wished he was close to topping was himself.

Snowball:

So if you play the same opposition a year later with the same team, it will always be the same result, huh?

You are using year old stats to suggest we are a ‘better team without Gylfi’. In reality, there are more factors at play then whether one man is involved or not.

But I agree with the rest of your post – the league table really should be decided by me; I’m going to replace Won Drawn and Lost with Smiling, Hairdo’s, and Kit Accessorising.