How long until England can compete with the best?

[rhroyal]

A question not specific to the Euros so no need to merge (predicting the pedants).

I remember as recently as 2006, people expected us to win things. We had players producing the goods at a club level regularly and we felt entitled to see it on the international stage. We weren't good enough; we didn't have enough technical ability and quality on the ball. We gave the ball away. For all their success at club level, no players were familiar with a role or setting that required keeping possession or dictating play. This is partly because the Premier League can be a little "you attack, we attack", but more that they had technically gifted foreigners to play that role for them at club level.

With hindsight, the "failure" of 2006 was utterly predictable. And people finally seem to have noticed in my view. Everybody has talked about, for a few years now (basically since Spain's rise) the gulf in class between England and the best when it comes to technical ability. People are suddenly discussing futsal for our kids. People are looking at Barca's model. People are considering not introducing the best kids to competitive football until 15/16 (which is what Barca do) to promote technical learning above win at all costs. These movements appear to be happening with the FA.

2 things:

1 - Will it actually happen? Will we start producing more technical players? Or will England fans continue to appreciate the meaty tackle above all else? Will we continue to import foreign players for skill and flair? Will the FA and football clubs actually invest in the right facilities and make the right decisions?

2 - If it does happen, how long until it bears fruition? Were we to get all the decisions right and perfect now, we'd still be looking at building the infrastructure and training appropriate coaches before finally developing the players from a young age. That's potentially 30-40 years.

It seems we're miles away from winning big tournaments, and will continue to chase and ball and wear ourselves out against big teams.

P.S. Not so related, but another hindsight point. What was Sven thinking playing Scholes out of position and allowing him to reach his decision on international retirement? The one player we have with the passing game to do well at international level. Hopefully we handle Wilsher better.

[soggy biscuit]

Its the taking part that counts

[Hoop Blah]

I don't really accept that we were total failures at 2006, or 2002 for that matter. Ultimately we didn't win the tournament, so you could say we failed, as did 31 other teams who made the finals.

In 2006 we started slowly but won our group (which we should've done really), then played quite well against Portugal and could quite possibly have won it. If, and that's obviously a massive if, we'd won that shoot out against Portugal everyone would've said we were German'eque in the way we were growing into the tournament.

In 2002 we lost to a good Brazil side who went on to win it. We lost to a freak goal and couldn't find a way to beat a very good ten man Brazil side who were already in front.

Realistically that's two half decent returns where we've been beaten without being outclassed. Our players where good enough to mix it with the best, but, as in all forms of top level sport there's a fine line between success and failure.

Have we really failed or do we just expect too much?

How long until we can really challenge? As it's pretty cyclical I think we could have a decent side for 2016 (assuming we can't challenge in 2014 because it's in Brazil and a South American team will probably win it).

[T.O.G.]

Now we know what the content of the Monty Python "WW2 British secret weapon joke" was !!!

[Kitsondinho]

I think our problem is far more of a mental one than technical ability....Look at the record we have in going ahead in major tournaments, but being unable to sustain it....

1970 - Leading Germany 2-0 up and blew it.

1996 - Leading Germany 1-0 and lost on pens.

1998 - Leading Argentina 2-1 and lost on pens ( During which we were ahead).

2000 - Leading Romanian 2-1 up and lost.

2002 - Leading Brazil 1-0 up and lost.

2004 - Leading Portugal 1-0 and lost.

2012 - After being outplayed last night, during the pens we were ahead and lost.

Then we have the games where we played well in fits and starts (like last night) and just couldn't sustain it....

1988 - Drew level against both USSR and Netherlands....then blew it.

1990 - Drew level with Germany and blew it on pens.

1998 - Drew level with Romania in group and then blew it.

2002 - Beating Sweden and then giving a silly goal away.

2004 - Beating France and then blew it in last 2 mins.

2012 - Started well for 25 mins against Italy...but blew it.

[Royal Dee]

Englands style of play is too negative and this leads to a overall negative result. Whether you prefer rodgers style of passing football or hoof the ball to the big guy (bolton/stoke) I think its a no brainer that you have to attack to win. Englands mentality in the last 2 tournamnets have been "underdog" and catious with no flair or skill. This may be influenced by the mentality enforced on them from the manager or it maybe the crop of players dont have it in them to play any other way.

Untill we actually start taking controll of our own destiny by going out there and giving it a go and trying to win rather than the philosophy we saw in the italian game where even the comentators had the mentality of "lets see through the extra time" when it should be "lets go out there and win" , yet the menality we had, ment we went to penaltys... as if to assert we have a great penalty record and we should play to our strengths.

In recent years we have had some very skillfull and succesfull players that have come through the england ranks such as Beckham, Owen, Rooney, Ashley Cole etc... but when looking at the up coming talent you see players like Phil Jones and Jordan Henderson. Even though these players may be hard working and hounest players, they are not exciting nor good enough to compete with the youth of other countries such as Balotelli, Ozil, Nelson Oliveira and others.

I think its a matter of time before we get another batch of talent but hopefull this time the media wont put unnecessary pressure on them to win stuff.

[Handsome Man]

At the moment we are in a bit of a lull and don't have the players who we felt optimisic about 10 years ago or so. The Beckham-Owen golden generation didn't win anything between 98 and 2006, but at least we felt they had a chance.

Comparing is difficult, because you can't always make a like for like comparison, but the team that lost on pens to Argentina is far better on paper than the one that got stuffed against Italy. You can make a case for the current side having the better left back maybe, but about five of the 1998 team are in a different class to their 2010 equivalents. Maybe I am being generous to Paul Ince and a bit unkind to Gerrard, but I know which team I think is better.

Seaman vs Hart
Neville vs Johnson
Le Saux vs Cole
Adams vs Terry
Campbell vs Lescott
Anderton vs Milner
Beckham vs Young
Ince vs Parker
Scholes vs Gerrard
Owen vs Rooney
Shearer vs Wellbeck

IN a couple of years time, we will have a new crop of players - the ones inspired when Beckham scored against Greece or by the 1-5 - and things will look better again.

[Hoop Blah]

In recent years we have had some very skillfull and succesfull players that have come through the england ranks such as Beckham, Owen, Rooney, Ashley Cole etc... but when looking at the up coming talent you see players like Phil Jones and Jordan Henderson. Even though these players may be hard working and hounest players, they are not exciting nor good enough to compete with the youth of other countries such as Balotelli, Ozil, Nelson Oliveira and others.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but it's a bit of selective ccomparison of talent to compare a centre half and box to box midfielder with the attacking talent you mention.

Jones is a really exciting talent in terms of central defenders, and if you mentioned Oxlade-Chamberlain, Kyle Walker or Jack Wilshire you'd have two or three more exciting forwarded minded players to compare.

We do need to develope more attacking talent, that's a given, but we are still developing good players in our system (don't forget Gareth Bale is one of the hottest properties around and is from the same system, he's just unfortunate in his ancestry!).

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Never - unless we have fewer matches and those matches are less intensive.

One of the justifications for the PL in 1992 was that the 18 teams in it would mean fewer matches which would be better for the England team. Then self-interest took over.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Never - unless we have fewer matches and those matches are less intensive.

One of the justifications for the PL in 1992 was that the 18 teams in it would mean fewer matches which would be better for the England team. Then self-interest took over.

La Liga also has a 20 team top division.

The idea that we were outplayed because we were tired is nonsense.

We were outplayed because we are unable to keep the ball under pressure. Keeping it when we aren't under pressure is difficult enough. That has nothing to do with the number of games we play.

[Jackson Corner]

Never I'm 47 have watched England fail time and time again. To the point we are so far behind the rest we will never be able to catch up. We produce the odd individual talent but as a team it will never happen. We are at the stage where just reaching the finals is the summit of our achievement.

[Hoop Blah]

Never - unless we have fewer matches and those matches are less intensive.

One of the justifications for the PL in 1992 was that the 18 teams in it would mean fewer matches which would be better for the England team. Then self-interest took over.

La Liga also has a 20 team top division.

The idea that we were outplayed because we were tired is nonsense.

We were outplayed because we are unable to keep the ball under pressure. Keeping it when we aren't under pressure is difficult enough. That has nothing to do with the number of games we play.

La Liga is less intensive on the top players though, I think that was the point being made.

There is some weight to that argument, but I don't think it plays that big a part because I don't see our players being worn out by the long hard slog of the season when the tournament comes round.

It still comes down to, largely, the mental approach and a little bit of technique.

[Ian Royal]

Maybe they should cut back on the excessive number of European games.

[Hoop Blah]

As I've said, I don't think it's physical tiredness that is holding us back, so I don't think the number of games, or their intensity, is too much of an issue.

If there's a problem with tiredness I'd say it's more to do with our style of play at the tournament, and the lack of strength in depth to be able to replace tired legs when it mattered (I think Hodgson has said much the same on the latter point).

[Ian Royal]

As I've said, I don't think it's physical tiredness that is holding us back, so I don't think the number of games, or their intensity, is too much of an issue.

If there's a problem with tiredness I'd say it's more to do with our style of play at the tournament, and the lack of strength in depth to be able to replace tired legs when it mattered (I think Hodgson has said much the same on the latter point).

The English game is played at quite an energetic and frenetic pace so it could have a factor. So when you then add that to chasing a ball for 90 minutes three times in about a week I can see it being a factor.

There is a definite culture in England to get the ball and just drive at goal. Better to try and force an opening and fail than to potentially miss an ok opening while trying to create a good one. Our emphasis seems to be on solo efforts to score goals and win games in England. Great pile driver shots or jinking runs past 4 or 5 defenders.

I dont' want to see us play like Spain, but we definitely need to move in that direction more.

[No Fixed Abode]

Said it before the tournament - should really try and pick English players who are playing regular Champions League football.

Of the squad who went to the Euro's I can think of ...

A Cole
Terry
Rooney
Walcott

Obviously we had a few injuries, but this is nowhere near enough players, playing regularly in the CL.

[Ian Royal]

Said it before the tournament - should really try and pick English players who are playing regular Champions League football.

Of the squad who went to the Euro's I can think of ...

A Cole
Terry
Rooney
Walcott

Obviously we had a few injuries, but this is nowhere near enough players, playing regularly in the CL.

You missed Lescott, he played as many games as Rooney in the CL last season (and Hart). Unless you mean historically, in which case you should probably include Gerrard.

[No Fixed Abode]

Said it before the tournament - should really try and pick English players who are playing regular Champions League football.

Of the squad who went to the Euro's I can think of ...

A Cole
Terry
Rooney
Walcott

Obviously we had a few injuries, but this is nowhere near enough players, playing regularly in the CL.

You missed Lescott, he played as many games as Rooney in the CL last season (and Hart). Unless you mean historically, in which case you should probably include Gerrard.

In regularly I meant over the past say 3-4 years - so no, Gerrard is not included. (Or Lescott)

[LoyalRoyalFan]

Gerrard is one of England's best players. Your argument is invalid.

[frimmers3]

i think it sobering to acknowledge that almost without exception the cited "saviours" of our international status have not completed a full season in the premiership,and some less.not denying the raw talent,but there is a hell of a difference between potential and delivery.