An Ipswich fan writes: Church - is he any good?

[HoneyRoastHoax]

[pea]

Church is a great finisher and has some good raw qualities but his decision making lets him down too often. If he could get a decent run in a side then I'm sure he'd iron those inconsistencies out and be a good asset but its not often that loanees get that sort of leniency (see Bongani Khumalo as one of many examples). Might need to move on permanently to reach his full potential but he is a Royal through and through and I think McDermott would find it almost as hard to part with him as Church would to leave.

[pea]

I'd drive Church to Ipswich myself for £500.

Who wouldn't? But I'm not sure he'd shell out that much for a journey he could do in his own car for a tenth of the price

[MassSarrslibrarian]

Be it minutes on the pitch, appearances, even taking the amount of goals he's scored multiplied by his mother's shoe size divided by the time that Mars spent in Uranus plus the square root of that in addition to times that Church has looked like a potent deadly striking force (that's ZERO by the way)...HE IS SHIT!!

Yes I will give you he's scored goals, but half of those are breakaway goals,at end of games when the opposition is already down on it's heels...

[Snowball]

10 of Church's appearances (coming on as sub) last season totaled 137 minutes, scoring 3 goals

Born 10.12.88 - At the end of last season Church was 23 Years, 4 Months, 18 Days old

Shane Long was that age on 10-June 2010 BEFORE his big season with us.



If you compare the two while relative young, to identical ages, Church has scored more!

you get

21 Championship Goals in 4,592 Minutes at a rate of a goal every 219 Minutes CHURCH
18 Championship Goals in 3,680 Minutes at a rate of a goal every 205 Minutes LONG

If Long, given a chance to play 46 x 90 minutes could suddenly shine,
(and he only changed from scoring a goal every 205 minutes to a goal every 180
there's no real reason to think Church cannot do something similar if given a chance.

[bigmike]

I'd drive Church to Ipswich myself for £500.

Who wouldn't? But I'm not sure he'd shell out that much for a journey he could do in his own car for a tenth of the price

I think he was offering £500 for the privilege of driving Church there ... Maybe we could start a collection and see if we can help Ipswich get the money together to compleate the transfer

[West Stand Man]

Be it minutes on the pitch, appearances, even taking the amount of goals he's scored multiplied by his mother's shoe size divided by the time that Mars spent in Uranus plus the square root of that in addition to times that Church has looked like a potent deadly striking force (that's ZERO by the way)...HE IS SHIT!!

Yes I will give you he's scored goals, but half of those are breakaway goals,at end of games when the opposition is already down on it's heels...

Along with that prat John from Risely (and his quote that Federici made a large number 'of errors last season'), I challenge you to prove that statement with some detail.

[bigmike]

10 of Church's appearances (coming on as sub) last season totaled 137 minutes, scoring 3 goals

Born 10.12.88 - At the end of last season Church was 23 Years, 4 Months, 18 Days old

Shane Long was that age on 10-June 2010 BEFORE his big season with us.



If you compare the two while relative young, to identical ages, Church has scored more!

you get

21 Championship Goals in 4,592 Minutes at a rate of a goal every 219 Minutes CHURCH
18 Championship Goals in 3,680 Minutes at a rate of a goal every 205 Minutes LONG

If Long, given a chance to play 46 x 90 minutes could suddenly shine,
(and he only changed from scoring a goal every 205 minutes to a goal every 180
there's no real reason to think Church cannot do something similar if given a chance.

OOOooooooo Well done ... More dodgy stats

you now have membership to the Tufty Club wear the badge with pride

[Snowball]

Yes I will give you he's scored goals, but half of those are breakaway goals,at end of games when the opposition is already down on it's heels...

Official Stats indicate otherwise.


02 Goals 01-15 Minutes
04 Goals 16-30 Minutes
03 Goals 31-45 Minutes
06 Goals 46-60 Minutes (15 Goals in the first hour of games
01 Goals 61-75 Minutes
09 Goals 76-90 Minutes
03 Goals 90+ Minutes

[Snowball]

21 Championship Goals in 4,592 Minutes at a rate of a goal every 219 Minutes CHURCH
18 Championship Goals in 3,680 Minutes at a rate of a goal every 205 Minutes LONG

OOOooooooo Well done ... More dodgy stats

I don't particularly want to hear about your achievements BM, but well done on your Tufty Badge.

Now, if the stats are dodgy (official stats) please explain what's dodgy about them

[Vision]

Hoop, I said, Page 1.

4,952 Championship minutes for 21 Championship Goals

= 236 minutes per goal or about a goal every 2.5 90 minutes. That includes one very poor season 2010-11

in 2009-10 he got 10 Championship Goals in 1,856 minutes. 1 every 186 minutes. That is top-top striking

Last season as a bit-part player, often brought on when we were protecting a lead he still got 7 goals in 1639 = 234 mins/goal.

When he started out people raved about his movement and great things were expected.

Compared to someone like Shane Long (for ages he was considered MUCH better than Long) he isn't brave/reckless
but IMO, in the right Championship side, giving lots of playing time and decent service he can get back to a goal every 180 minutes.

He maybe lacks confidence but has all the raw materials to be at least a very good championship striker at least

If you need specifics.

I predict something very similar to what I did for Shane Long.

I said Shane would make a 10-goal a season Prem Player, or 20-a season Championship, or 30-a-season in League 1.

I don't think Churchy has the raw aggression/sheer speed to ever match Shane, but he probably has a better football brain,
more subtle movement, can find space etc (as opposed to being a channel-runner, which Shane is great at) so could,
in the right team, match Shane's goals. ie: His touch and movement can compensate somewhat for the power-attributes he lacks

So instead of 10-20-30, I predict 8-17-25 but I can see him doing better than that (playing a full season, mostly starting)

I think Simon needs games, a lot of games, starting, and getting 75+ minutes to blossom, but if he gets that (presumably,
to begin with in the Championship) I would expect him to score a goal every 200 minutes of play time or a tad better.

Ok not having a go here but I think its important to define what we mean by a "10 goal a season prem player" or "20 goal a season championship" one. I would suggest you have to do it over the course of several seasons, not necessarily every one but certainly more often than not.

As things stand Long has only achieved this prediction of yours once. Thats not to say he wont achieve it in the future on a consistent basis but by my definition he hasn't yet.

[Snowball]

Ok not having a go here but I think its important to define what we mean by a "10 goal a season prem player" or "20 goal a season championship" one. I would suggest you have to do it over the course of several seasons, not necessarily every one but certainly more often than not.

As things stand Long has only achieved this prediction of yours once. That;s not to say he wont achieve it in the future on a consistent basis but by my definition he hasn't yet.

I think you'll find I still haven't claimed that Long has done that in the Prem.

However he exceeded predictions in the Championship and then did very well in the Prem
and IMO that's two seasons back-to-back, (including a nasty injury and a heart scare) and that IMO
is sufficient to say Shane has met the predictions (even tho I've kept my powder dry waiting for
him to be even better!)

[Hoop Blah]

Hoop, I said, Page 1.

4,952 Championship minutes for 21 Championship Goals

= 236 minutes per goal or about a goal every 2.5 90 minutes. That includes one very poor season 2010-11

in 2009-10 he got 10 Championship Goals in 1,856 minutes. 1 every 186 minutes. That is top-top striking

Last season as a bit-part player, often brought on when we were protecting a lead he still got 7 goals in 1639 = 234 mins/goal.

When he started out people raved about his movement and great things were expected.

Compared to someone like Shane Long (for ages he was considered MUCH better than Long) he isn't brave/reckless
but IMO, in the right Championship side, giving lots of playing time and decent service he can get back to a goal every 180 minutes.

He maybe lacks confidence but has all the raw materials to be at least a very good championship striker at least

If you need specifics.

I predict something very similar to what I did for Shane Long.

I said Shane would make a 10-goal a season Prem Player, or 20-a season Championship, or 30-a-season in League 1.

I don't think Churchy has the raw aggression/sheer speed to ever match Shane, but he probably has a better football brain,
more subtle movement, can find space etc (as opposed to being a channel-runner, which Shane is great at) so could,
in the right team, match Shane's goals. ie: His touch and movement can compensate somewhat for the power-attributes he lacks

So instead of 10-20-30, I predict 8-17-25 but I can see him doing better than that (playing a full season, mostly starting)

I think Simon needs games, a lot of games, starting, and getting 75+ minutes to blossom, but if he gets that (presumably,
to begin with in the Championship) I would expect him to score a goal every 200 minutes of play time or a tad better.

Ok not having a go here but I think its important to define what we mean by a "10 goal a season prem player" or "20 goal a season championship" one. I would suggest you have to do it over the course of several seasons, not necessarily every one but certainly more often than not.

As things stand Long has only achieved this prediction of yours once. Thats not to say he wont achieve it in the future on a consistent basis but by my definition he hasn't yet.

Do we include penalties in that as well? League goals only? Still seems a bit wooly to me...

I'm yet to be convinced that you were proven right on Long by the way, but that's not an argument I'm getting in to again. Long, in a side that played soley to his strengths had one good season and scored a pretty respectable number of goals and earned his move to the Premier League but I still don't think he suddenly turned into anything other than an average player.

I actually agree pretty much with you're opinion of Church. He was, as typical of our youngsters, hyped up as something pretty decent but has pretty much failed to live up to that billing. He's accumulated a half decent goals return considering the number of opportunities he fluffs, but, although I don't think he'll ever be prolific, in the right circumstances he could do a reasonably job for a middling Championship side.

[West Stand Man]

Yes I will give you he's scored goals, but half of those are breakaway goals,at end of games when the opposition is already down on it's heels...

Official Stats indicate otherwise.


02 Goals 01-15 Minutes
04 Goals 16-30 Minutes
03 Goals 31-45 Minutes
06 Goals 46-60 Minutes (15 Goals in the first hour of games
01 Goals 61-75 Minutes
09 Goals 76-90 Minutes
03 Goals 90+ Minutes

You are being too kind to him. I challenged him to prove his ridiculous statement!

[Snowball]

Yes I will give you he's scored goals, but half of those are breakaway goals,at end of games when the opposition is already down on it's heels...

Official Stats indicate otherwise.


02 Goals 01-15 Minutes
04 Goals 16-30 Minutes
03 Goals 31-45 Minutes
06 Goals 46-60 Minutes (15 Goals in the first hour of games
01 Goals 61-75 Minutes
09 Goals 76-90 Minutes
03 Goals 90+ Minutes

You are being too kind to him. I challenged him to prove his ridiculous statement!

Yeah, I know, but proof involves being able to read, calculate, dress yourself in the morning

[West Stand Man]

Yeah, I know, but proof involves being able to read, calculate, dress yourself in the morning

Point taken.

[Snowball]

Hoop, are you seriously suggesting that Shane Long would not be considered
a proper Premiership decent-quality player now?

Of course he's made it. Barring serious injury I think he will do as well as Doyle or better.

[Vision]

Ok not having a go here but I think its important to define what we mean by a "10 goal a season prem player" or "20 goal a season championship" one. I would suggest you have to do it over the course of several seasons, not necessarily every one but certainly more often than not.

As things stand Long has only achieved this prediction of yours once. That;s not to say he wont achieve it in the future on a consistent basis but by my definition he hasn't yet.

I think you'll find I still haven't claimed that Long has done that in the Prem.

However he exceeded predictions in the Championship and then did very well in the Prem
and IMO that's two seasons back-to-back, (including a nasty injury and a heart scare) and that IMO
is sufficient to say Shane has met the predictions (even tho I've kept my powder dry waiting for
him to be even better!)

So by your own admission he hasn't yet met the prediction you continually claim to have made.

He did exceed expectations in the championship and a lot of people in the premiership but you can't say he has Acheived X amount of goals if he hasn't There may have been mitigating circumstances but until he gets the 10 goal figure you can't say your prediction is right can you.

I want to stress I'm not having a pop because you stuck by your guns with regards to his championship capability but as of yet he hasn't done it in successive seasons and so far his goalscoring record (and thats what we're talking about here) is about the same as someone like Michael Ricketts over a similiar period of time.

[Snowball]

Do we include penalties in that as well? League goals only? Still seems a bit wooly to me...

When they start removing penalties from player-stats let me know.

I'm yet to be convinced that you were proven right on Long by the way, but that's not an argument I'm getting in to again.
Long, in a side that played soley to his strengths had one good season and scored a pretty respectable number of goals and earned his move
to the Premier League but I still don't think he suddenly turned into anything other than an average player.

How many Premiership strikers score ten goals a season? And if he's an average PREMIERSHIP player (sold for 4 Million or more
because he was too good for the Championship) I'd say he's already proved himself. That's 2.5 consecutive quality seasons now.

Very solid second half of 2009-10. Superb 2010-11, very good Premiership 2011-12

[Vision]

Tbf Hoop his championship haul that season was a bit better than just "pretty respectable number of goals".