Valley Parade Fire - 1985

[HoneyRoastHoax]

The gates at the back of the stand were locked. They found a lot of bodies here who had been ushered there by stewards and police. The gates had been locked to ensure ticketless people can't get accesss.

Wooden stand, poor housekeeping combined with ineffective means of escape lead to the deaths.

[Jerry St Clair]

I wasn't going to mention Lewis's alleged creative accounting, however tempting it was. I was also aware of anecdotal evidence regarding to crowds significanty over capacity so thanks to those with better memories for backing up what I said. I stand by the suggestion that Elm Park was not a ground that could hold 17,000+ safely.

The biggest crowd I was ever in an EP was 14,500 and that felt pretty full, though not uncomfortably so. I can imagine that an additional 3 or 4 thousand would make things dicey, though.

I actually think the exits were the biggest problem. 5,000+ people leaving the Southbank and immediately turning left or right onto the Tilehurst Road onto a normal width pavement with traffic going past seems mental now.

[Zaretsky]

I have no idea how you predict rare occurances and prevent them from happening.

In that you're not involved in risk management? So what? And if that's derision at the idea of predicting rare occurrences and preventing them from happening, then

[From Despair To Where?]

The biggest crowd I was ever in an EP was 14,500 and that felt pretty full, though not uncomfortably so. I can imagine that an additional 3 or 4 thousand would make things dicey, though.

I actually think the exits were the biggest problem. 5,000+ people leaving the Southbank and immediately turning left or right onto the Tilehurst Road onto a normal width pavement with traffic going past seems mental now.

Getting out the gate by the turnstiles was always fun, especially when the momentum of the crowd pushed you into the gatepost of a brick wall.

[Gordons Cumming]

How on earth did Elm Park ever hold 33,000 people?

[3 veesinarow]

It was certainly damn scary being in a crowd of 27,500 vs Southampton in the League Cup in 78/79.

This. Not a pleasant experience at all.

[HoneyRoastHoax]

[HoneyRoastHoax]

Not EP obvs but I love this pic. Proper good terrace

[From Despair To Where?]

Looks like Molyneux. Revisited on an earlier thread but by the 80's that terrace was a proper shithole.

What strikes me most, and is really at the heart of the problems in the 80's is that we accepted shitty grounds, organisation oblivious to good practice and frankly antagonistic policing as the normal matchday experience. It took the deaths of 162 people at 2 different grounds 4 years apart, (Hillsborough was regarded as one of the best grounds in the league) to change things.

I loved the excitement and atmosphere of the old terracing, at times the whole terrace moved and breathed as one like a caged animal and you don't get that any more, the nearest the Madejski has got to it was the last 10 minutes of the Wigan playoff in 2001, however, whilst I look back with rose tinted fondness to those years, I don't necessarily want to revisit them.

[M Brook]

It's Molineux in 1933 if I'm not mistaken.

I remember that game against Southampton in 1978. Couldn't get in the South Bank so went in the Tilehurst End. 0-0. Went to the replay at the Dell as well.

[M Brook]

I do remember an associate of Mike Lewis telling me that the attendance for the Wolves game, the 14th in that season, was actually 10,000 more than the official records indicate.

The same Mike Lewis that was convicted of fraudulent trading while a director of Exeter City? Fancy that.

Anyone ever read his book?
http://www.verticaleditions.com/proddet ... 1904091202

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

I loved the excitement and atmosphere of the old terracing, at times the whole terrace moved and breathed as one like a caged animal and you don't get that any more, the nearest the Madejski has got to it was the last 10 minutes of the Wigan playoff in 2001, however, whilst I look back with rose tinted fondness to those years, I don't necessarily want to revisit them.

I'd love to have that back.

Its loss is to me the single biggest factor in not enjoying football as much as I used to.

[sputnik]

It was certainly damn scary being in a crowd of 27,500 vs Southampton in the League Cup in 78/79.

This. Not a pleasant experience at all.

I remember my dad taking me to that game. It was our first experience of crowd trouble at Elm Park and the last game we went to together for over thirty years as it put him off going again. Still remember the fella who was nicked for removing his false limb to hit someone with being escorted away in front of the South Bank with a another plod not far behind carrying the prosthetic. Can't remember if it was an arm or a leg though.

[M Brook]

It was certainly damn scary being in a crowd of 27,500 vs Southampton in the League Cup in 78/79.

This. Not a pleasant experience at all.

I remember my dad taking me to that game. It was our first experience of crowd trouble at Elm Park and the last game we went to together for over thirty years as it put him off going again. Still remember the fella who was nicked for removing his false limb to hit someone with being escorted away in front of the South Bank with a another plod not far behind carrying the prosthetic. Can't remember if it was an arm or a leg though.

It was expensive to get into EP in those days!

[Wimb]

Thing that strikes me now when looking back on the South Bank is actually how small it was compared to the stands we see today. Also have to admire the gamble that Madejski made when he decided to build a 24,000 seater stadium when attendances had rarely peaked above 10,000 in the second tier. Could quite easily have elected to save money and go with a Sixfields style 10k all-seater.

[From Despair To Where?]

I loved the excitement and atmosphere of the old terracing, at times the whole terrace moved and breathed as one like a caged animal and you don't get that any more, the nearest the Madejski has got to it was the last 10 minutes of the Wigan playoff in 2001, however, whilst I look back with rose tinted fondness to those years, I don't necessarily want to revisit them.

I'd love to have that back.

Its loss is to me the single biggest factor in not enjoying football as much as I used to.

It's the crammed into substandard pens and treated like shit I wouldn't like to revisit. Those "oh shit, if the crowd surges again, I'm going over and there's gonna be 20 people on top of me" moments. I was young, had a subdued sense of danger and if the authorities didn't give a shit, why should I. It was great fun but with the benefit of hindsight, things like Bradford and Hillsborough make you realise it could have so easily been different. I agree whole experience isn't as fun or atmospheric as it used to be and that is largely down to the dissappearance of old style terracing but football culture has changed so much, I'm not sure the introduction of safe standing areas would make that much of a difference because a "safe" standing can't adequately replicate the fluidity of the old terraces or that sense of being on the edge. Matchday is so sanitised now in comparison.

However, the main reason I don't enjoy football as much as I used to is that I've grown up. I have different priorities and responsibilities and I've realised that, at the end of it all, Bill Shankley and latterly Sky are so, so wrong. Its not bigger or more important than life, it's just a game. A game that's been turned into a oxf*rd soap opera.

[Royalist]

Worth asking fans in Germany what they think of their standing areas. It can clearly be done and not have anyone die! The amount of bruises my legs have got from standing up and sitting down is more than any injury i've got standing up when done right!

[sputnik]

It was expensive to get into EP in those days!

chuckle raised

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Worth asking fans in Germany what they think of their standing areas. It can clearly be done and not have anyone die! The amount of bruises my legs have got from standing up and sitting down is more than any injury i've got standing up when done right!

I remember going to Alemannia Aachen three or four years ago, in their final year before moving to their new ground next door. It was sort of like being back at Elm Park, with three sides of terracing, with only the side covered, and a relatively small seated stand opposite.

No surges or anything - just as well as the terracing was pretty steep - but is was good to feel part of a crowd again, rather than part of an audience.

On the negative side, you do forget just how bad it is to have to watch football from behind a fence.

[PBR]

of course german fans can handle standing, gotta explain why english teams are notable in being contributing to most (if not all) of the deadly stadium disasters.. even our gun ho american cousins are more behaved, v interesting.. maybe english less civilized??