England v Moldova/Ukraine - WCQ

[AthleticoSpizz]

Lampard lol



C'mon mate, WC winners 2014, seriously?

[TBM]

Great argument

He's played every game so far this season....

Anyway. Never said we'd win it but that's not why you support your team

[AthleticoSpizz]

No argument from me

I'll give you Lampard (admittedly)

Enjoy

As much as I want to see Roy H dancing around with the Jules Rihmes (sic) on his head,

Somehow, the magic has long since gone for me, and I cannot see our up-and-coming team of second-best Premier choices winning me (nor the WC) over, 20000 empty chairs tonight seem to agree.

Maybe not until we draw a line in the sand and put a limit on Premier teams and their foreign line-up numbers (personally, I couldn't care less, how many foreign players that a team have in their squad, but I do believe that they should only be allowed to field 5 non-UK-born players at any one time), which probably makes me as popular as cancer.

I (of course) hope that I'm wrong regarding Englands 4 or 2 yearly progressive demise

[Barry the bird boggler]

It's critical England do not lose to Ukraine on Tuesday. If they do then they will struggle to make the finals.

GROUP H currently

Team P W D L GF GA Pts
England 7 4 3 0 25 3 15
Montenegro 8 4 3 1 15 8 15
Ukraine 7 4 2 1 19 4 14
Poland 7 2 4 1 13 8 10
Moldova 8 1 2 5 4 15 5
San Marino 7 0 0 7 0 38 0

England's remaining games

Ukraine (a)
Montenegro (h)
Poland (h)

Montenegro's remaining games

England (a)
Moldova (h)

Ukraine's remaining games

England (h)
Poland (h)
San Marino (a)

[stealthpapes]

I'm fairly sure it'll be England/Ukraine in either order as Montenegro didn't rack up the same number of goals vs Dan Marino.

But, come on, the World Cup will be infinitely better with Montenegro qualifying ahead of England.

None of the hyperbole, a team that can play football, a chance to follow the tournament without being pressured to believe

[Royal Rother]

My cynicism has reached a stage where I think I would quite enjoy it all - that is the daft hype swiftly followed by abject performances and ultimate inevitable humiliation. Is it 32 countries this time? Placing us in an order of merit in that 32 based on technical ability would be interesting.

I watched most of the game last night (because my son wanted to) and thought about what I was getting from it - not exactly a deep insight but, yes, I want to see my country do well, but I feel virtually nothing for the players themselves so there's no passion for me - watching them is just going through the motions for me.

I do like the Lambert back story (rag to riches), and I like watching Wilshere as he is the 1st English player who I want to see on the ball all the time since Gascoigne, I like the integrity and maturity of the manager, but really that's about it. I feel virtually nothing for the rest.

Ukraine 3-1 England

[PieEater]

As there were 30,000 empty seats last night I assume a lot of people agree with you.

When was the last time that happened for a game that mattered?

[Royalclapper]

The media and other hangers on are the real a*seholes where England are concerned, they're so OTT it gets to the point of being embarrassing. I've long since stopped reading the press reports and things like 'England - the verdict' blah blah. We're a solid but unspectacular national team, promising at best, predictable at worst. The sooner the broadcasters and journalists back off and accept that they DO NOT own the national side the better.

Hodgson did well to get us to the quarter final against Italy in 2012 and that is our honest level, no more, no less. The only time England will threaten for a tournament is when we have truly gifted players like Paul Gascoigne involved who really can live with the best. You've only got to look at Theo Walcott, his pace is one of the few ways in which England can get behind opposition defences, but he's barely a Premier League standard football player let alone an International so they can only be expected to achieve so much.

You can't blame the players for not showing what the punters think is enough pride if the punters themselves don't show enough for supporting their national side. It doesn't help when shit like 'England's golden generation' gets put out, golden generation of what? - reasonable, but not exceptional players is the answer.

[Mr Angry]

Agreed re: the media; had to listen to the first 20 mins of each half on the radio and Alan Green.....quite incredible.

He started by reiterating that it was a "must win" game (when aren't they Alan??), but then within 5 minutes he was moaning that England should be beating "teams like this" emphatically, and implied that it was unacceptable that we weren't 10 - 0 up AND playing like Brazil 1970!

At the start of the 2nd half after Welbeck's 2nd (and England 4-0 up) he was still moaning that it wasn't good enough......Jeez, I thought the idea was to win the game; you don't get extra qualification points for artistic interpretation!!

[stealthpapes]

2010 was a proper low point. The Sun's backpage after the draw was made was EASY (England, Algeria, Slovenia, Yanks).

Remind me how that worked out?

[southbank1871]

The media and other hangers on are the real a*seholes where England are concerned, they're so OTT it gets to the point of being embarrassing. I've long since stopped reading the press reports and things like 'England - the verdict' blah blah. We're a solid but unspectacular national team, promising at best, predictable at worst. The sooner the broadcasters and journalists back off and accept that they DO NOT own the national side the better.

Hodgson did well to get us to the quarter final against Italy in 2012 and that is our honest level, no more, no less. The only time England will threaten for a tournament is when we have truly gifted players like Paul Gascoigne involved who really can live with the best. You've only got to look at Theo Walcott, his pace is one of the few ways in which England can get behind opposition defences, but he's barely a Premier League standard football player let alone an International so they can only be expected to achieve so much.

You can't blame the players for not showing what the punters think is enough pride if the punters themselves don't show enough for supporting their national side. It doesn't help when shit like 'England's golden generation' gets put out, golden generation of what? - reasonable, but not exceptional players is the answer.

Which Theo Walcott are you talking about? I'm guessing not the one that scored 21 goals last season for Arsenal?

[Royalclapper]

The media and other hangers on are the real a*seholes where England are concerned, they're so OTT it gets to the point of being embarrassing. I've long since stopped reading the press reports and things like 'England - the verdict' blah blah. We're a solid but unspectacular national team, promising at best, predictable at worst. The sooner the broadcasters and journalists back off and accept that they DO NOT own the national side the better.

Hodgson did well to get us to the quarter final against Italy in 2012 and that is our honest level, no more, no less. The only time England will threaten for a tournament is when we have truly gifted players like Paul Gascoigne involved who really can live with the best. You've only got to look at Theo Walcott, his pace is one of the few ways in which England can get behind opposition defences, but he's barely a Premier League standard football player let alone an International so they can only be expected to achieve so much.

You can't blame the players for not showing what the punters think is enough pride if the punters themselves don't show enough for supporting their national side. It doesn't help when shit like 'England's golden generation' gets put out, golden generation of what? - reasonable, but not exceptional players is the answer.

Which Theo Walcott are you talking about? I'm guessing not the one that scored 21 goals last season for Arsenal?

He isn't a great player though is he. Soon as the pace fades he's fcucked, his basic natural football ability is limited to say the least - that's not to take anything away from his Arsenal goal scoring record last season, just a more realistic assessment of his true talent which is what it comes down to if you're going to be a threat in a major tournament. Using his previous 21 goal season would be a classic way for the journo's to start the unrealistic hype when the truth is he's not that great and should be considered as such, if he had one or two flashes of brilliance then great, any expectations beyond that are unreasonable.

[Royal Rother]

Indeed, that comment made me splutter slightly.

[sandman]

Tbf Walcott scored quite a few of those goals last season against Reading so it's not that great an achievement.

[Royalclapper]

And also tbf to Walcott he never strikes me, or indeed comes across as, anything other than someone who knows his own strengths and weaknesses. I don't get the impression that he thinks he's going to be another Messi or whatever, more like just someone simply giving what he can based on his talent. Very often he takes 2 or 3 touches to bring the ball under control when a deft first touch would lead to a very dangerous opening, if he could do that regularly then we'd be talking about a different proposition altogether.

[stealthpapes]

There's nothing wrong with a player knowing and maximising his strengths and minimising his weaknesses.

Imo, the issue England have is that they don't manage to do this; there's a niche for well-organised teams that work as a unit, buoyed by talents in key positions. Sadly, English players seem to have practically zero tactical awareness. Couple that with technical issues (what you're actually highlighting with the 2-3 touches point) and you have supposedly talented players incapable of playing as a team, lacking the ability to even play the high paced, yet simple game that might actually be entertaining and possibly see positive results. Still, Fat Fwank knocking in a few from long range, Stevie G knocking 40 yard passes into the crowd and sending the big lads up for corners. That'll work. Believe.

But frankly, it's been like this since at least 2002, and wiser and more knowledgeable posters have been telling me I'm wrong on this count for over a decade now. Yet they always seem so surprised when it all goes wrong. Again.

[Royalclapper]

There's nothing wrong with a player knowing and maximising his strengths and minimising his weaknesses.

Imo, the issue England have is that they don't manage to do this; there's a niche for well-organised teams that work as a unit, buoyed by talents in key positions. Sadly, English players seem to have practically zero tactical awareness. Couple that with technical issues (what you're actually highlighting with the 2-3 touches point) and you have supposedly talented players incapable of playing as a team, lacking the ability to even play the high paced, yet simple game that might actually be entertaining and possibly see positive results. Still, Fat Fwank knocking in a few from long range, Stevie G knocking 40 yard passes into the crowd and sending the big lads up for corners. That'll work. Believe.

But frankly, it's been like this since at least 2002, and wiser and more knowledgeable posters have been telling me I'm wrong on this count for over a decade now. Yet they always seem so surprised when it all goes wrong. Again.

I think you've perfectly described the old tournament winning sides of what was West Germany there. However, even this football theory has now been surpassed in terms of tactical and technical ability. Spain have put more than a few South American noses out of joint with their unprecedented success and have well and truly wrestled the sunshine and sexiness back on to European soil as far as International football is concerned. For years and years we had to endure the emotionless, turgid German team grinding everyone down in a cold passion killing way, add to that the cynical Italians defending and deliberately fouling their way to success and maybe with the exception of Holland, European national football was choking the life out of the International game.

Blimey, even the Germans make for attractive viewing these days and England appear to be some way off ever having such an entertaining side, nevertheless, we are criminally short of genuinely talented players and the expectations should be in line with this rather than a disproportionately unfair media - not to say that they shouldn't get behind them like many of us do though, just give it a break from time to time with the unrealistic frenzy.

[southbank1871]

The media and other hangers on are the real a*seholes where England are concerned, they're so OTT it gets to the point of being embarrassing. I've long since stopped reading the press reports and things like 'England - the verdict' blah blah. We're a solid but unspectacular national team, promising at best, predictable at worst. The sooner the broadcasters and journalists back off and accept that they DO NOT own the national side the better.

Hodgson did well to get us to the quarter final against Italy in 2012 and that is our honest level, no more, no less. The only time England will threaten for a tournament is when we have truly gifted players like Paul Gascoigne involved who really can live with the best. You've only got to look at Theo Walcott, his pace is one of the few ways in which England can get behind opposition defences, but he's barely a Premier League standard football player let alone an International so they can only be expected to achieve so much.

You can't blame the players for not showing what the punters think is enough pride if the punters themselves don't show enough for supporting their national side. It doesn't help when shit like 'England's golden generation' gets put out, golden generation of what? - reasonable, but not exceptional players is the answer.

Which Theo Walcott are you talking about? I'm guessing not the one that scored 21 goals last season for Arsenal?

He isn't a great player though is he. Soon as the pace fades he's fcucked, his basic natural football ability is limited to say the least - that's not to take anything away from his Arsenal goal scoring record last season, just a more realistic assessment of his true talent which is what it comes down to if you're going to be a threat in a major tournament. Using his previous 21 goal season would be a classic way for the journo's to start the unrealistic hype when the truth is he's not that great and should be considered as such, if he had one or two flashes of brilliance then great, any expectations beyond that are unreasonable.

Not suggesting he's world class, just took issue with the claim that he's 'barely a Premier League standard player'. His goal and assist record doesn't really support this. In fact he's a very effective Premier League player.

[Sanguine]

^Terrific thread this, great to see some proper football discussion on here, interesting reading.

[Royalclapper]

Reports of a group of England fans being attacked by some local thugs in Kiev, one suffered a knife wound by the sounds of things. News outlets saying the incident happened at a coffee shop in the Ukrainian Capital It must be true that hoolies are becoming more sophisticated nowadays then.