england - the next generation

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papereyes
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Re: england - the next generation

by papereyes » 14 Jun 2011 18:48

Hoop Blah Ritual humiliation?

You don't think you're overstating things a little bit?

We produce some excellent players, maybe not as many as we should considering the number of participants and money within our game (not that much of it gets to grassroots really) but we're still one of the top teams in the world, and our record at major championships backs that up really.

I'm all for looking to improve it, and paps is right one of the problems is the lack of coaches (although I'd argue that we probably have a lot more than those that are registered, and having seen both registered and not that isn't always a bad thing) but it's also function of the national mindset, I don't think football fans or the FA can do a hell of a lot about that.


I dunno - I like the idea that having coaches at even the most basic levels (like myself) means that when you get someone taking over, say, a cubs team, he's at least slightly clue-ed up as to the basics of taking a session and some ideas of what drills improve what things. Level 1 was just about controlling 20 odd kids but you can see it helping.

All time England > All Time Spain.


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Re: england - the next generation

by papereyes » 14 Jun 2011 18:52

Hoop Blah
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Hoop Blah but it's also function of the national mindset


that we've become a nation of lazy ignorant shitheads basically


To a certain extent yes.

I also think that our sport reflects a national persona at times too. We aren't, as a nation, a flamboyant and creative bunch of people (obviously some are) and we're quite functional and consistent along the way. It may just be a stereotype of course but I think it rings true as well though. Us and the Germans don't produce many flair players between us. We produce functional players.



The problem is that we don't really produce technical players in the same way as Germany either.

From experience, a decent player who can read the game and play simple balls is utterly underrated at pretty much every level of English football. Height and the ability to ping 40 yard passes out of play seem to be much more regarded.
Last edited by papereyes on 15 Jun 2011 11:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Hoop Blah » 14 Jun 2011 20:05

papereyes I dunno - I like the idea that having coaches at even the most basic levels (like myself) means that when you get someone taking over, say, a cubs team, he's at least slightly clue-ed up as to the basics of taking a session and some ideas of what drills improve what things. Level 1 was just about controlling 20 odd kids but you can see it helping.


I agree in theory, and I don't think it can hurt to get as many people through the process to try and get the right principles in whereever possible but my general experience of both qualified and unqualified coaches is that it makes very little, if any, difference.

The best coaches I've worked with are those that know the game and can engage with the players. I'd say the better ones were that way before their coaching badges or in fact haven't got them. That's why I'm not sure the number of registered coaches matters too much, although I do think it's something that should continue to be encouraged at all levels.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Ian Royal » 14 Jun 2011 20:21

Hoop Blah
papereyes I dunno - I like the idea that having coaches at even the most basic levels (like myself) means that when you get someone taking over, say, a cubs team, he's at least slightly clue-ed up as to the basics of taking a session and some ideas of what drills improve what things. Level 1 was just about controlling 20 odd kids but you can see it helping.


I agree in theory, and I don't think it can hurt to get as many people through the process to try and get the right principles in whereever possible but my general experience of both qualified and unqualified coaches is that it makes very little, if any, difference.

The best coaches I've worked with are those that know the game and can engage with the players. I'd say the better ones were that way before their coaching badges or in fact haven't got them. That's why I'm not sure the number of registered coaches matters too much, although I do think it's something that should continue to be encouraged at all levels.


Am I being naive in thinking that if we had better coaching qualifications and more qualified coaches we could do more to ensure that the ones who aren't qualified and are good get qualified, prevent the ones who are shit qualify and make it so mostly it's only good qualified coaches involved.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Hoop Blah » 15 Jun 2011 11:22

Ian, I think a lot of the qualifications are UEFA set criteria so we can't dictate a lot of it. I'm not even sure how possible it is the fail the basic ones which are more about child protection and health and safety than football (from what I've heard as I never did them myself so those that have please correct me if I'm wrong).

Somewhere like Burton should be the key to improving coaching though. That should be the centre of excellence for improving standards, not the place for the elite to sharpen their skills as the media would probably make out.

I'm all for getting more people involved and improving standards, and so are the FA, it's just not as easy as it sounds.


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Re: england - the next generation

by papereyes » 15 Jun 2011 11:27

I think my view is that it probably weeds out or reforms the genuinely useless ones who actually detract from the experience and its intended to get someone with some idea at every level.

I'm not even sure how possible it is the fail the basic ones which are more about child protection and health and safety than football (from what I've heard as I never did them myself so those that have please correct me if I'm wrong).


Yeah, the lowest level one is.

We had one guy fail.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Royal Rother » 15 Jun 2011 11:37

Dream team to get things moving - Arsene Wenger, Glenn Hoddle and Seb Coe.

Wenger to be the somewhat aloof master mind with a vision...

Hoddle the passionate communicator and great ex pro who understands what makes English footballers tick...

Seb Coe the great Administrator, schmoozer, fixer and hatchet man...

Oh well, just a thought.

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Re: england - the next generation

by ZacNaloen » 15 Jun 2011 12:29

papereyes I think my view is that it probably weeds out or reforms the genuinely useless ones who actually detract from the experience and its intended to get someone with some idea at every level.

I'm not even sure how possible it is the fail the basic ones which are more about child protection and health and safety than football (from what I've heard as I never did them myself so those that have please correct me if I'm wrong).


Yeah, the lowest level one is.

We had one guy fail.



Paedo?

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Re: england - the next generation

by Vision » 15 Jun 2011 12:31

Playing a little Devil's Advocate here but the Wenger thing interests me somewhat.

Wenger's Mark 1 Arsenal team was pretty much made up of tall,quick athletic types. Particularly those that he signed who came out of the much vaunted French National Academy set up. There weren't many petit Giresse/Platini types in the all conquering French side of the late 90's nor indeed Wenger's French contingent of the likes of Anelka,Vieira,Petit and Henry.

Contrast that to Wenger's current Arsenal side which seems to feature much less the tall athletic rather than the more technical type of player. Of course I'm not saying that Anleka,Henry,Vieira et al didnt have technical footballing skills just that they are certainly of a different ilk to the likes of Nasri,Fabregas or Wilshire. I suppose Diaby is the nearest in physical type but he's not always a first choice.

I just wonder is this as a result of a change in policy for Wenger, is it merely an indication of the type of player he can now attract, is it a reflection of modern football 10 years on, or is it even a result of 15 or so years of his influence in the Arsenal Academy now producing this type of player?

The interesting thing to me is that whenever I've watched England youth sides Schoolboy U-17's etc and to be fair I dont see that much, generally the Arsenal kids seem just as (if anything more so) taller,quicker and physically stronger than the rest.

Finally with the Wenger thing. Given he's been in charge of Arsenal for around 15 years an England Roll call of Cole, Wilshire and Gibbs!! (as listed by TBM above) is a pretty piss poor return given the resources that Arsenal put into their Academy. Does the fact (I say fact although it might just be my perception) that he does have a problem with the mentality of young English players mean he's unsuitable for a National role within a Young England set-up. Or conversely does it make him exactly the sort of person we want in there.?


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Re: england - the next generation

by Big Foot » 15 Jun 2011 12:58

^ Compare what Wenger won with his team of tall, quick and athletic players with what he's won with the current crop of smaller ballers?

Interesting.

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Re: england - the next generation

by papereyes » 15 Jun 2011 13:42

ZacNaloen
papereyes I think my view is that it probably weeds out or reforms the genuinely useless ones who actually detract from the experience and its intended to get someone with some idea at every level.

I'm not even sure how possible it is the fail the basic ones which are more about child protection and health and safety than football (from what I've heard as I never did them myself so those that have please correct me if I'm wrong).


Yeah, the lowest level one is.

We had one guy fail.



Paedo?


He got caught oxf*rd on the second day. You're not far wrong.

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Re: england - the next generation

by papereyes » 15 Jun 2011 13:44

Big Foot ^ Compare what Wenger won with his team of tall, quick and athletic players with what he's won with the current crop of smaller ballers?

Interesting.


I think Arsenal fans do that on a regular basis.

That said, he inherited Adams, Keown, Dixon(?) who were the defence on which the first league title was won and one or two were still involved in later seasons.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Hoop Blah » 15 Jun 2011 14:15

Not only that paps, he inherited Seaman, Dixon, Bould, Adams, Keown and Winterburn (I think O'Leary had called it a day by then) and so didn't have to do anything with the defence for a few years.

I think Hoddle would be a good influence at the FA, but I can't see that ever really happening after the way they hung him out to dry. He's actually trying to do his bit through his own means but that's a bit of a finishing school/second chance saloon that won't have the benfits we're looking for.

Gareth Southgate and Trevor Brooking are onboard to try and influence things from a 'football' persepctive and to an extent I think they seem quite well suited to it.


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Re: england - the next generation

by moo » 15 Jun 2011 20:13

McCarthy on the bench again for this match v Ukraine. Suprised Rose starts on the wing ahead of Sinclair. Crazy.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Kitsondinho » 15 Jun 2011 20:31

We aren't playing great so far. Ukraine have moved it around well and been rather cynical too! Mind you Danny Sturridge almost smashed a screamer in!

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Re: england - the next generation

by Franchise FC » 15 Jun 2011 20:43

England are so, so far away from a decent team.

They are playing semi-international hoofball of the worst kind. Even the Sturridge chance against the bar was the result of mis-control in the first place.

I've tried to explain to my 11 year old that the most important thing in the game is to be comfortable on the ball and get used to passing and moving to provide options. That way you can work around the opposition rather than bombing the ball forward all the time. He's beginning to get the message and watching Barca in La Liga certainly helps.
Ten minutes in threes in a 10m x 10m area playing one touch and moving is seriously better than ten minutes running round a field to 'get fit'.

But hey, what do I know ?

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Re: england - the next generation

by chilipepper91 » 15 Jun 2011 21:12

Franchise FC England are so, so far away from a decent team.

They are playing semi-international hoofball of the worst kind. Even the Sturridge chance against the bar was the result of mis-control in the first place.

I've tried to explain to my 11 year old that the most important thing in the game is to be comfortable on the ball and get used to passing and moving to provide options. That way you can work around the opposition rather than bombing the ball forward all the time. He's beginning to get the message and watching Barca in La Liga certainly helps.
Ten minutes in threes in a 10m x 10m area playing one touch and moving is seriously better than ten minutes running round a field to 'get fit'.

But hey, what do I know ?


Caught the last ten of the Spain-Czech game earlier, their passing really was something to behold (though they were 2-0 up and the Czechs seemed pretty tired). Even so, the Czechs only got the ball when the Spanish misplaced their passes.

From Twitter:
OptaJoe Opta Sports
45% - Of the 29 long passes attempted by England in the first half against Ukraine, only 13 (45%) found a teammate. Hoof.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Victor Meldrew » 15 Jun 2011 21:35

Franchise FC England are so, so far away from a decent team.

They are playing semi-international hoofball of the worst kind. Even the Sturridge chance against the bar was the result of mis-control in the first place.

I've tried to explain to my 11 year old that the most important thing in the game is to be comfortable on the ball and get used to passing and moving to provide options. That way you can work around the opposition rather than bombing the ball forward all the time. He's beginning to get the message and watching Barca in La Liga certainly helps.
Ten minutes in threes in a 10m x 10m area playing one touch and moving is seriously better than ten minutes running round a field to 'get fit'.

But hey, what do I know ?


Spot on with the emphasis on "move".
So many English players pass a ball then stop to wait and see what happens rather than having already moved.
I'm not sure where young kids would now do it but playing with a tennis ball from an early stage is great for learning immediate control-if you can control a tennis ball the control of a football is a piece of cake.
Unfortunately young ones tend to only play with footballs right from the off.
We breed and go for the hard-running,stamina-packed type of player from a young age but when you see Wellbeck or a Shane Long unable to get their body shape right to receive a ball or try to do something immediate they just can't do it and these are strikers costing millions of pounds.

When I was involved with running kids' football I found that so many sides were concerned with playing off-side and wellying away possession even at very young ages and at the supposed good standard of rep. football when I felt it should be the total football of the Dutch (now taken on by Barcelona) as an aim rather than pushing up a back four and playing for offsides just to try to get a 1-0 win.

Our kids do have a winning mentality but are not encouraged to keep possession or pass to a player who is marked for fear of losing that possession when (as shown by Barcelona and to a lesser extent by Swansea and Reading in the McGhee days) with better control learned and practised from a very young age it makes sense to pass to another player even if he is marked closely because it is so much easier then to lose that close marker than one who is standing a yard or two away.

All of what is happening at the FA will take ages and ages to bear fruit but whilst so many of our 10 year-olds are being coached (?) by the dad whose firm supplies the kit and used to play centre-half for the Dog and Duck on a Sunday and finds a place for his not-very-good son in the team we will remain the dinosaurs of world football. With our defenders clearing the ball anywhere as long as it is temporarily safe (ignoring the fact that possession has so easily been given away) and midfielders charging around aimlessly for much of games and forwards doing often little more than chasing lost causes we will remain non-winners on the international stage because so many other nations give so much more thought to how they should play the game and like the great managers,Clough and Shankley regard the ball as a valued possession and not something to be given away so cheaply.

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Re: england - the next generation

by Royal Rother » 15 Jun 2011 22:29

Well said you guys - I agree with every word. I shall add no more because I said my piece last week.

Suffice to say that there is SOME hope. My son has recently joined the Wycombe Wanderers Elite Academy Development Centre (well, he's actually been "signed up" tonight) and they certainly encourage the one touch, small space, pass and move game. In fact that's pretty much all they do in the training sessions we've attended.

No idea whether any of them will be good enough to "make it" but the way they do it does look promising.

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Re: england - the next generation

by who are ya? » 15 Jun 2011 22:36

I won't be satisfied untill England are doing shit like this against the Germans in a semi final..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DinJ2NY05s

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