Coppell v Silkman re: Foreigners in the English Leagues

[AF2]

the fact remains that outside the top flight English clubs get better crowds in that German ones do.

dont think that's true tbf, or if it is its not by significant margins

[Ian Royal]

Because clubs that aren't big have set ups with room for growth?

Or is it because, like in English football people are only interested in the big clubs and you can paint as many nice pictures as you wish the fact remains that outside the top flight English clubs get better crowds in that German ones do.

I'd imaging though if Anfield, The Bridge, White Hart Lane etc were bigger than Engligh top flight attendances would rival the German ones.

I do agree that the Germans have by far the better set up but lets not fall for these FFS conspiracy theories.

I didn't think there was an awful lot of comparing attendence figures here. I get the feeling you're missing / twisting the point. It's hard to compare numbers between the two countries because they are demographically different. Surely the point is the percentage of income and the treatment.

If TV money was cut massively and gate receipts became 60% of revenue here, the clubs would have to make changes, treat supporters better and so on. And it could well be that would cause an increase in attendence here.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

Because clubs that aren't big have set ups with room for growth?

Or is it because, like in English football people are only interested in the big clubs and you can paint as many nice pictures as you wish the fact remains that outside the top flight English clubs get better crowds in that German ones do.

I'd imaging though if Anfield, The Bridge, White Hart Lane etc were bigger than Engligh top flight attendances would rival the German ones.

I do agree that the Germans have by far the better set up but lets not fall for these FFS conspiracy theories.

There's certainly truth in what you say, but it's not the whole story.

Here are the crowd averages for this season in Germany

No.Club                     Average    Games    vs '09    Highest
1  BV 09 Borussia Dortmund  76.412       9        2,1%     80.552
2  FC Bayern München        69.000       9        0,0%     69.000
3  FC Schalke 04            61.179       9       -0,3%     61.673
4  Hamburger SV             55.853       9        2,0%     57.000
5  Borussia Mönchengladbach 47.811       8        0,9%     54.057
6  1. FC Köln               47.778       9       -3,1%     50.000
7  SG Eintracht Frankfurt   46.967       9       -0,1%     51.500
8  Hertha BSC Berlin        44.110       8      -15,4%     49.208
9  1. FC Nürnberg           41.697       8       24,0%     46.780
10 VfB Stuttgart            41.167       9      -20,7%     42.000
11 Hannoverscher SV 1896    37.335       9      -10,8%     49.000
12 SV Werder Bremen         34.378       8      -15,1%     37.000
13 TSG 1899 Hoffenheim      29.906       8        6,5%     30.150
14 VfL Wolfsburg            29.430       9        7,4%     30.000
15 Bayer 04 Leverkussen     29.093       8        8,4%     30.210
16 VfL Bochum 1848          24.064       8       -5,7%     30.748
17 SC Freiburg              23.825       8       44,8%     24.500
18 1. FSV Mainz 05          20.206       8        3,4%     20.300
.  Total                    42.790                0,5%     80.552

2. Bundesliga 2009-2010

No.Club                    Average     Games    vs '09    Highest
1  1. FC Kaiserslautern    33.121        8       -3,8%     41.491
2  TSV München 1860        25.850        8       -8,0%     37.100
3  TSV Alemannia Aachen    24.053        8       24,1%     32.960
4  TSV Fortuna Düsseldorf  23.879        9       60,5%     32.495
5  FC St. Pauli Hamburg    22.003        8       -1,6%     23.254
6  Karlsruher SC           18.592        8      -33,7%     26.300
7  DSC Arminia Bielefeld   16.750        8      -28,6%     23.800
8  FC Augsburg 1907        15.567        9       -0,1%     22.272
9  1. FC Union Berlin      15.136        9      111,8%     19.000
10  MSV Duisburg           14.804        8        0,4%     27.371
11  FC Hansa Rostock       14.300        9       -3,3%     21.500
12  FC Energie Cottbus     11.691        8      -30,1%     13.700
13  SC Paderborn 07         9.366        9       21,4%     15.000
14  TuS Koblenz             7.446        9      -22,6%      8.635
15  SC Rot-Weiß Oberhausen  6.935        9        1,4%     12.615
16  SpVgg. Gruether Fürth   5.718        9      -30,8%      7.850
17  FSV Frankfurt           5.534        8      -22,9%      9.664
18  Rot-Weiß Ahlen          4.358        9       -5,2%      6.612
.   Total                  15.056                -4,3%     41.491

Yes, if several top flight English crowds were bigger, crowds would be too, but the same is also said of Germany as well. Around 2/3rds look sold out nigh on every week.

What you don't have in Germany is anything like the "big 4", which helps keep the championship interesting, rather than the league-within-a-league the big 4 (usually) play out amongst themselves. I'd say that's certainly a factor in their better crowds.

It is true that there isn't the same interest in the lower division clubs. I think a lot of that is probably because until very recently they only had two national divisions, with all football below there deemed amatuer. Football used to be very regionalised. The equivalent would be if Reading went down this year, we'd be put in a division with the likes of Slough, Maidenhead, Basingstoke, Bracknell, Windsor and Didcot, plus maybe Portsmouth Reserves. With only two promotion spots back to the championship up for grabs among the champions of multiple regional leagues, clubs would stagnate very easily.



I am actually slightly surprised at least some clubs haven't tried to press for bringing back terracing. Surely some must have realised they could fit 50% more fans into a stand, and only drop ticket prices 25%, making a clear profit.

[Dirk Gently]

....

I am actually slightly surprised at least some clubs haven't tried to press for bringing back terracing. Surely some must have realised they could fit 50% more fans into a stand, and only drop ticket prices 25%, making a clear profit.

They have, privately, but none are brave enough to break ranks publicly because of the backlash they'd get from the FLA. But at least one established Pl club looking to relocate would like to have a safe-standing area if they were allowed to.

But - and certainly at smaller clubs - there is a definite strengthening of support for safe standing. The perfect example is Bradford who, because they were in Tier 1 & 2 now have to be all-seater by law, even though they are now firmly ensconced back in Tier 4.

It's also significant that the Football Foundation will not give financial support to any club (at any level about Tier 5) to any development including a standing area.

[TheMaraudingDog]

If TV money was cut massively and gate receipts became 60% of revenue here, the clubs would have to make changes, treat supporters better and so on. And it could well be that would cause an increase in attendence here.

Odd isn't it that it's only the clubs who have the most TV money and generate a lower % of their revenue on match days that are the ones with the full houses week in week out.

Look down the league, clubs that get 5k each week, some of the prices are near on £20.

You could also argue that if the big clubs got less TV money they'd have to rape the match going fan even more than what they already do in order to maintain revenue and the top players.

[papereyes]

I do agree that the Germans have by far the better set up but lets not fall for these FFS conspiracy theories.

Its definitely a set-up I think the Premiership could look at and learn from.